Minutes of the February, 2013 Heralds Meeting

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Start: 12:34 pm; End: 2:20 pm

The meeting was held at the home of Eilis O'Boirne in Berkeley, CA. In general, all future meetings will be held at Eilis’ house (2322 Russell Street, Berkeley CA 94705; 510-486-0633 -- call for directions). “Road show” meetings, if any, will be announced well in advance.

Moira O'Connor, Vesper; Eilis ni Roibeard O'Boirne, Baldric; Sven Gotfriedson, Coronet; Caoimhín o Fiodhabrha, PAL; Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym ap Morgan o Erryrys, Matins; Krysta MacIntyre, PAL; Astrith of Swansvale, Latimer.

Heralds’ Meetings for 2013: Mar 17, Apr 21, May 19, Jun 16, Jul 14, Aug 18, Sep 22, Oct 20, Nov 24, no meeting in Dec, Jan 5, 2014.

Walk-in submissions will be held over until the following month unless they arrive early enough to be processed in before the scheduled start of the meeting.

We are conducting some preliminary name research through the West Kingdom heraldic consultation mailing list wkheralds_consults@yahoogroups.com . This list is open to all those interested in West Kingdom book heraldry: both names and devices, and either to contribute or to ask questions. To join the list, please subscribe through Yahoo or at wkheralds_consults-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. If you subscribe by e-mail, you can complete the process by replying to the confirmation e-mail; it is not necessary to log in to Yahoo. Please note that initial posts are moderated and thus may not appear on the list immediately.



Vesper: A work day is needed; we have gone through some of the files for the last 18-24 months; no notification letters have gone out. Work day on Saturday, March 2, with overflow on March 3. The Roster is having technical difficulties.

Matins: All of 2012 LOI’s have gone out. Three LOARs were published in November and December. In those three letters, there was only one West Kingdom return from Laurel. The LOI for January is not complete because Matins cannot quad-multi-task and take notes, too. LOI for January 2013 will go out shortly. November 2012 Minutes will get to Hirsch soon, with January and February 2013 minutes to follow.

Sable Swan: (written report) Investiture happened and was a fantastically funny lesson in “Do not have three different versions of the Viscounty ceremony.” We had the original, the Vesper re-written version and the Mari and Brocc re-written version – all three of which Mari and I discussed at some length early Saturday morning, and then were discussed with Thorstag and Eowyn, and none of which were discussed with Gwenhwyfaer since she was supposedly only doing Investiture. But Their Highnesses decided to foll directly from Investiture into First Court (on the fly, no less). Gwenhwyfaer did a lovely job of rolling with the punches, and we now have a semi-official term of “Reset” to start a ceremony (or paragraph) over.

Exchequer: We have money; Domesday should be completed tomorrow.

Stellanordica: Coronet happened and was fine; There are two Heraldic titles registered to Oertha, Sejant Wolf (voice/court) and Wolfhound (consulting). Stellanordica now knows about the titles. Looking for Deputy/Successor.

Seawolf: No report.

Greencloak: No activity between 12th Night and now; no final Royal word re Crown format – Sven supplied the information that it appears it will be a round robin open to all; invocation will be the top combatants from each RR field; then into a tournament for the Crown. Will be looking for deputy/successor.

Banner: No report; Moira has delivered the books and tabards to Eilis.

Baldric: No report; upcoming classes need to be discussed.

South Bay Brachet: No report.

Latimer: No consults since 12th Night; consultation table will be at Northern Wolf and March Crown.

Golem: No report.


The next Known World Heralds and Scribes Symposium will be held in the Barony of Bjornsborg in the Kingdom of Ansteorra (San Antonio, Texas) on June 28-30, 2013. More information to follow.


VOICE HERALDRY: Greencloak will continue to hold voice heraldry training sessions at the beginning of events to encourage involvement at the event.

MAILING LIST: The West Kingdom College of Heralds has a mailing list for internal communication. Any herald is welcome to join by request. To join the list, please subscribe at wkheralds-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.

ELECTRONIC RESOURCES: Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at http://www.sca.org/heraldry, including the Laurel home page, the on-line Armorial and Ordinary (with search capabilities) and The Academy of St. Gabriel (an onomastic and heraldic consultation service). The West Kingdom Heraldry site and the West Kingdom Awards List can be accessed through the West Kingdom site, http://www.westkingdom.org. Heraldic queries may also be addressed to Moira at herald@westkingdom.org -- answers may take a few days.

West Kingdom College of Heralds Minutes are published on the web. They may be read at or printed from the heralds' website at http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Minutes.htm. There is a colored version and a printer-friendly black and white version available.

The office of Brachet is currently vacant, no Brachet meetings are being held.

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. Please consider attending – you do not have to be able to attend every week. They are a fast way to learn how the Rules of Submission work and how to research armory. These meetings have changed location and are now in Walnut Creek on Wednesday nights. If you are interested, contact the Latimer Herald, Astrið of Swansvale (Gretchen Lebednik) at .


The cover letters, acceptances and returns for the past can be found at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/. If you are interested in responding to some of the calls for commentary put out by the Laurel Sovereign of Arms, please be sure to visit the site.

December 2012 LoAR (01 Feb 2013)

Cover letter

From Pelican: Some Name Resources (An Ongoing Series)

Household name patterns are something that many people, including many commenters, find confusing. Essentially, a household name is a name that refers to a group of people instead of a single individual (order names also do this, of course). It may be a family group, a guild, a military unit, or something else. As such, we allow household names to be created from a variety of models.

We have been relatively flexible about models for registration. For example, we have allowed the registration of names derived from the name of a building in which a household might be located (like a name derived from an inn-sign or house name). However, we require that any given household name submission follow a pattern specific to a given time and place. A great resource in getting started with patterns is Sharon Krossa's "A Brief, Incomplete, and Rather Stopgap Article about European Household and Other Group Names Before 1600" (http://medievalscotland.org/names/eurohouseholds/index.shtml). Next month we'll talk about some of those patterns in more detail.

From Pelican: Differences in Sound and Appearance under SENA

This month, the question of whether Mathias Blaket conflicts with Mathias Blackwell created confusion for commenters. The names clearly are different in appearance, as the differences affect two syllables and several letters. Differences in sound only affect the second syllable of the byname. However, they affect all sounds of that syllable. Some commenters argued that the sound of the two vowels, both represented as e, was the same. However, the letter used to represent the sound is not important; comparisons to sound are made only on the basis of the sound itself.

Commenters agreed that even if the changes only affected the consonants of the second syllable, the difference would be sufficient to render the two items clear of conflict. We would like further discussion on this question: should two syllables be substantially different if changes affect both the initial and final consonant clusters of the syllable but not the vowel?

From Pelican: Gaelic Matronymics

Under the Rules for Submissions, matronymics in Gaelic were a step from period practice because they were relatively rare and seem to have only appeared in descriptions after a patronymic byname. Under the Standards for Evaluation, steps from period practice no longer exist in names. Instead, each pattern must be ruled registerable (and compatible with period practice) or unregisterable.

We hereby rule matronymics in Gaelic compatible with period practice. This is based on two lines of evidence. The first is the number of examples using matronymic descriptions/bynames in the Annals. More details about these names can be seen in Mari Elspeth nic Bryan's "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Matronymic Bynames" (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Matronymic.shtml). This is further supported by Anglicized Irish sources that have Gaelic-derived matronymic bynames. Diademe was able to identify a few from "Names Found in Anglicized Irish Documents" by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada. Two examples are Katherine ny Joan ny Acheim and Andrew m'Grany fitz James (where Grany is a spelling of Grainne). Given this variety of data, matronymic bynames in Gaelic will remain registerable.

From Pelican: Company as Order Name Designator?

SENA says "In general, designators which are used for household and association names cannot be used for orders and awards.... Similarly, Company of the Levrier is registerable as a household name, but not as an award or order name."

Company is an odd designator: it was used in period both to refer to orders (as in the period Companie du Cigne Noir, Compaignie de la Gartier, or compagnia dell'Argata, all from Juliana de Luna's "Medieval Secular Order Names") and to military groups (such as the grey period Military Company of the City of London).

We would invite commentary on this piece of SENA: is it desirable to maintain a distinction between the designators for household names and for orders? Or should we allow the use of terms like company to serve as the designators for order names?

From Pelican: Summarizing Academy of Saint Gabriel Reports

Precedent from July 2006 (Amy verch Rychard, Acceptances - An Tir) says:

The documentation for this name, an Academy of Saint Gabriel letter, was not properly summarized. Because Saint Gabriel letters are built from a variety of sources, it is important to know where the Academy got the information in their letter. We remind submissions heralds that summarizations of Saint Gabriel letters must include the sources the Academy cites for its information -- this is important to the commenters when trying to decide whether the Academy's analysis is valid.

This precedent requires more detail in the summary of Academy of Saint Gabriel letters than for any other sources. We do not require that the summary of a published article include its sources, nor that a summary include the location from which the OED, the MED, or Reaney and Wilson took their information. Therefore, we are removing the requirement that summaries of an Academy of Saint Gabriel report include the sources cited.

We note that this does not remove the requirement that the conclusions of the letter be summarized. You must still include information about the time and place from which a name element is documented, as well as what sort of name element it is. It also remains true that early Academy of Saint Gabriel reports (those numbered under 1000) do not meet the Academy's later standards and should be used with caution, as they themselves warn.

From Wreath: In Annulo and You

A submission this month raised the issue of whether or not multiple charges in annulo, where the charges are arranged and turned in a circle so that each charge has a different orientation, is found in period armory. Evidence provided suggests that in fact it is not a period motif at all. Multiple charges arranged in annulo or in orle are typically only found palewise in period armory.

However, that design motif has a long history in Society heraldry, and so we are not inclined to banish it at this time. Therefore, the motif of multiple charges in annulo or in orle, where the charges are not in their default orientation is henceforth considered a step from period practice.

From Wreath: Complicated Orles and Annulets

Two submissions this month had us making registerability rulings:

Orles charged with orles or tressures will not be registered after the June 2013 decision meeting without evidence of period practice.

Annulets with complex lines will not be registered after the June 2013 decision meeting without evidence of period practice.

West Kingdom acceptances (30 Sep, 2012 LOI)

Clotilde d'Avignon. Name.

The submitter requested authenticity for 14th century France. We cannot meet that request. We are not sure that the saint's name would have appeared as Clotilde, as opposed to Clotildis, in the 14th century. More importantly, we have no evidence of its use as the name of a regular person at that time. However, the name is registerable under the saint's name allowance.

James Bacon. Name (see RETURNS for device).

Nice English name for the 13th century on! We have evidence for James as a feminine name in the 14th century.

Patricia Blakethorn. Name.

This name does not conflict with the registered Patric of Blackthorn. Multiple syllables are changed between the two names.

Patricia of Roscommon. Reblazon of device. Per pale vert and azure, a rose and a fox's head erased argent.

Blazoned when registered in January 1973 as Per pale vert, a rose argent, and azure, a fox's head erased argent, we now blazon the entire field instead of by parts.

Sadb ingen Aedáin. Device. Sable, a female centaur passant guardant maintaining a spear between three estoiles argent.

West Kingdom returns

James Bacon. Device. Purpure, a polypus between three roundels argent.

This device is returned for violating SENA A2C1, which states that "Animals and plants must be drawn in a stylized heraldic form, not in a naturalistic or photorealistic style." While we do not have examples of a polypus or calamarie in period heraldry, we can draw on the examples given by other animals in heraldry. The tentacles of a polypus should be to base, not both to base and to chief, as we grant difference for tentacles to base, as with a polypus, versus tentacles to chief, as with a calamarie. Furthermore, the tentacles should not be twisted and half-hidden by each other; while some natural undulation and curl would be fine, the amount here is excessive and leads to difficulty with identification of the main charge.

In Service,
Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym ap Morgan o Erryrys,
Matins Herald

SUBMISSONS – 10 February, XLVII (2013)


Aibhilín inghean mhic Uibhilin -- Name and Device

Per pale wavy sable and argent, a Pegasus and a winged Wolf combatant counterchanged, in base a mullet of seven points vert.
This submission came in during October without payment. The submittor was notified and was payment supposedly sent in December. As nothing was received by the January meeting, the matter was pended again. Matins was informed that payment had been forwarded on Jan 2, but it has not yet been received. We are forwarding to Laurel WITHOUT receiving payment; as this is the Baroness of the Far West, and mail from there can be…glitchy.

Aibhilín – is found in Dated Names Found in Ó Corráin & Maguire’s ‘Irish Names’ by Mari ingen Briainmeic Donnchada, dated to the 16th century.

mhic Uibhilin – The Annals of Ulster, in 1310, record the killing of Aedh O’Connor by a Seonag MacUibhilin, a mercenary.

I do not know Irish names and welcome any assistance.

Fabian von Sandhausen -- Name and Device

Per bend sinister wavy Or and sable, a drawn bow with an arrow nocked reversed and a sword bendwise sinister counterchanged.
Fabian - Withycombe, p. 115;

von Sandhausen - “Sandhausen” seems to be the modern place name spelling which is what the submittor desires.

Device comments: No conflicts found.

Kenric Maur (name registered Oct 2012 LOAR) -- Device resubmission to Kingdom

Per chevron argent and Or, a chevron ploye gules between two ravens addorsed regardant and a Thor’s hammer sable.
Device comments: The previous submission, Or, a chevron ploye gules between two ravens addorsed regardant and a Thor’s hammer sable, was returned at Kingdom in July 2012 for conflict with the device of Lukas Mesmer (Aug 2002 Calo) Or, a chevron gules between three ermine spots sable. There was just one point of difference for type of secondary charges. This per chevron argent and Or field clears that conflict. No other conflicts found.


Irina zhena Barsuka Name and Device

Per pale purpure and argent, on a chevron charged with four paw prints and in base an Orthodox cross all counterchanged.
Irina - (given name, dated as early as 866 – found as late as 1467): Wickenden, p. 121. “Barsuk” (given name, dated 1545): Wickenden, p. 19. “zhena-Barsuka” (“wife of Barsuk”) The construction “Irina, wife of Barsuk” is correct formation in Russian, for a husband whose first name is Barsuk.

However, as she is the wife of Anton Barsuk and appears to wish to be known as such, Wickenden, p. xxxii, also supports the construction, Irina Antonova zhena Barsuka. This adds an additional word to her name, but changes nothing else.

Unfortunately, she has checked the “no major changes” box and we cannot make the above change without further consultation.

Device comments: No conflict found.

Rys of Imbroglio -- New Device

Per bend sinister vert and sable, a dog’s head affronty conjoined at the neck to two dog’s heads addorsed argent.
There was supposed to be a name submission form as well, but it was [not] in the submission packet. Moira will beat him and next month we will have forms. However, we cannot send on the submission without name forms.

Device comments: Heads – there needs to be more “neck” on each head, so that the “conjoined” can be seen in the drawing.

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