Minutes of the March, 2012 Heralds Meeting

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The meeting was held on Sunday, 4 March 2012, in Stockton. The meeting started at 2:30PM and ended rather later. In attendance at this meeting were: Owen ap Morgan, Matins; Moira O’Connor, Vesper; Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym, Brachet; Caoilinn Rose Maddox, Sable Swan / Exchequer; Aasa Thorvaldsdottir, Greencloak; Frederick of Holland, PaL; Maxen Dawel ap Morgan, PaL; and Aine inghean Tuathail ui Ghallchobhair, deputy to Pinnacle.

2012 meetings have been scheduled as follows: April 22, May 20, June 10, July 15, August 19, September 23, October 21, and November 11. There is no meeting scheduled for December 2012; the January 2013 meeting will be held the Sunday of 12th Night, as usual.

Starting time: As my father has started holding Quaker meetings for worship in our home some Sunday mornings, heraldry meetings will now start at 1:00 PM in order to avoid conflict. Please do not arrive before 12:30 PM.

PLEASE NOTE: Unless and until specified otherwise, the regular meetings are now taking place in Stockton at the home of Owen ap Morgan, Matins Herald:

2023 Oak Branch Dr
Stockton, CA 95205
(209) 463-6861 (message)
Contact Owen for directions. The drive is approximately an hour from Sacramento and an hour and a half from either Berkeley or San Jose via Livermore.

Walk-in submissions are generally permitted but not encouraged, as they do not allow for advance review and prep work.. If you are bringing the paperwork for a submission to a meeting, please plan to arrive by 12:30 PM to allow the file to be pulled or set up. For meetings not held in Stockton (Collegium, 12th Night, etc.) sufficient advance notice to pull any existing file will be required.

We are conducting some preliminary name research through the West Kingdom heraldic consultation mailing list wkheralds_consults@yahoogroups.com . This list is open to all those interested in West Kingdom book heraldry: both names and devices, and either to contribute or to ask questions. To join the list, please subscribe through Yahoo or at wkheralds_consults-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. If you subscribe by e-mail, you can complete the process by replying to the confirmation e-mail; it is not necessary to log in to Yahoo. Please note that initial posts are moderated and thus may not appear on the list immediately.



Reports from this meeting appear to have been misplaced. They will be entered if found.


The Known World Heralds and Scribes Symposium will be held in the East Kingdom (Rhode Island) over the weekend of June 22-24. Yes, this is the same weekend as West Kingdom June Crown Tourney. Sigh. Those desiring a more convenient time and location may desire to investigate the logistics of hosting one. It hasn't been held in the West in some time.


VOICE HERALDRY: Greencloak will continue to hold voice heraldry training sessions at the beginning of events to encourage involvement at the event.

MAILING LIST: The West Kingdom College of Heralds has a mailing list for internal communication. Any herald is welcome to join by request. To join the list, please subscribe at wkheralds-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.

ELECTRONIC RESOURCES: Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at http://www.sca.org/heraldry, including the Laurel home page, the on-line Armorial and Ordinary (with search capabilities) and The Academy of St. Gabriel (an onomastic and heraldic consultation service). The West Kingdom Heraldry site and the West Kingdom Awards List can be accessed through the West Kingdom site, http://www.westkingdom.org. Heraldic queries may also be addressed to Moira at herald@westkingdom.org -- answers may take a few days.

West Kingdom College of Heralds Minutes are published on the web. They may be read at or printed from the heralds' website at http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Minutes.htm. There is a colored version and a printer-friendly black and white version available.

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. The meetings are held most Mondays at 7:00 pm at 4317 Alderwood Way, Sacramento, CA 95864. Call Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym (Brachet) for more information, (916) 323-4268 or email her, .

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. Please consider attending – you do not have to be able to attend every week. They are a fast way to learn how the Rules of Submission work and how to research armory. These meetings have changed location and are now in Walnut Creek on Wednesday nights. If you are interested, contact the Latimer Herald, Astrið of Swansvale (Gretchen Lebednik) at .


The cover letters, acceptances and returns for the past can be found at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/. If you are interested in responding to some of the calls for commentary put out by the Laurel Queen of Arms, please be sure to visit the site.


Cover letter

From Pelican: Some Names Resources (a series): Language Mixes

Submitters are often interested in persona stories (and names) that involve culturally mixed backgrounds. We allow the registration of certain language mixes, but that's not what I want to deal with today. Instead, I want to talk about what the documented cultural mixes look like.

The first occasion when we see "culturally mixed" names is when people move from one part of Europe to another. There are a handful of famous examples. The English mercenary John Hawkwood was known in France as Jehan Haccoude and in Latinized Italian as Johannes Acutus (Giovanni Acuto). The Spanish princess Catalina de Aragon was known in English as Katharine of Aragon. Note that in each case, the name is written following the standards of a single language, with the given name "translated" into the local equivalent. The bynames are dealt with differently: sometimes translated, but also sometimes rendered phonetically.

We see the same thing in the Gaelic-speaking areas of Ireland and Scotland. Names are rendered either completely in Gaelic or completely in Anglicized forms. An amazing collection of Anglicized forms of Gaelic names can be found in Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada's "Names Found in Anglicized Irish Documents" (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnglicizedIrish/). You can see the opposite - English family names rendered in Gaelic - at http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/DescriptiveBynames.shtml (in the section labeled "Hereditary Surnames found in Feminine Names").

So, while we allow a name to be registered that mixes a given name written in Gaelic and a byname that's Anglicized, that's not how they would have been written down in period. Instead, the name would exist in two forms, one completely Gaelic and the other completely Anglicized.

The same is true of these other language mixes: while people moved from one place to another, their names changed as they went. So, while we allow names to be registered that mix certain languages, it's not the period way to solve the problem.

West Kingdom acceptances

Albrecht von Kallenberg. Device. Or, three boars statant in annulo and a bordure engrailed sable.

Anastasia de Granada. Reblazon of device. Or, in pale a quetzal proper perched on a pomegranate slipped and leaved gules.

Blazoned when registered in December 1971 as Or, a quetzal proper perched on a pomegranate slipped and leaved gules, the quetzal and pomegranate are co-primary charges.

Arganteilin filia Elffin. Device. Or, a pomegranate gules slipped and leaved proper and a chief embattled purpure.

This device is not in conflict with the device of Anastasia de Granada, reblazoned elsewhere on this letter as Or, in pale a quetzal proper perched on a pomegranate slipped and leaved gules. There is a CD for change in the number of primary charges and another CD for the addition of the chief.

Please advise the submitter to draw the chief somewhat deeper and with more regular embattlements.

Doireann of Danegeld Tor. Name and device. Per fess rayonny vert and argent, two ram's heads fesswise respectant couped and a four-leaf clover slipped counterchanged.

Danegeld Tor is the registered name of an SCA branch.

Please advise the submitter to draw larger and fewer rayons.

Helyas de Walincors. Device. Per pale sable and gules, a sword between two griffins combatant Or, a bordure ermine.

Katherine de Langelei. Name and device. Gules, a cross moline, a bordure engrailed Or.

Nice name for England around 1300!

Nice device!

Kerry the Rock. Reblazon of device. Argent semy of strawberries proper, a double-headed eagle sable.

Blazoned when registered in January 1973 as Argent, semy of strawberries proper, a double-headed roc displayed sable, orbed gules, the bird here is not carrying an elephant, and is indistinguishable from an eagle.

Marie von Kallenberg. Name.

The byname von Kallenberg is grandfathered to the submitter, as her father's name is registered as Albrecht von Kallenberg.

Miyake Nobuhiro. Alternate name Gryffen de Corwyn.

The byname is grandfathered to the submitter, as Sedania de Corwyn is the registered name of his wife.

Trava Zapadova. Name and device. Argent, a tree eradicated and in base a heart gules, a bordure sable.

Trava is the submitter's legal name. It is also documented as a period Russian masculine name, and would be registerable as such. The legal name allowance allows its use with the feminine byname.

West Kingdom returns


In Service,
Owen ap Morgan
Matins Herald

SUBMISSONS – 4 March, XLVI (2012)


Aine inghean Tuathail ui Ghallchobhair - New name and device

Vert, a ferret statant argent marked sable and on a chief Or three oak leaves vert.
The box is checked requesting authenticity for language and/or culture; while not expressly stated, this would seem to be Irish Gaelic. Submitted as Aine inghean Tuathal ui Ghalchobhair, the spellings do not quite match the forms in the submitter's documentation (from St. Gabriel reports 1383, 2520, 1613, 1683, and 575.) We have made the minor spelling adjustments. The documentation also shows accents on the A in Aine and the i in ui, but we understand omitting these to be permitted since it has been done consistently throughout.

Aine is a Gaelic feminine given name. Academy of St. Gabriel report #2520 (at http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2520+0) states

<A/ine> is a fine choice for you. (Here the slash indicates an acute accent over the preceding letter.) It was a popular name throughout the later medieval period; we find it recorded in your period in 1431, 1466, and 1468 [1, 2].

[1] O/ Corra/in, Donnchadh and Fidelma Maguire, _Irish Names_ (Dublin: The Lilliput Press, 1990), s.nn. A/ine, Siba/n, Danie/l, A/ed.

[2] Mari Elspeth nic Bryan, "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Feminine Names" (WWW: J. Mittleman, 2000), s.nn. A/ine, Siobha/n. http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/

inghean Tuathail is a Gaelic feminine patronymic byname. Academy of St. Gabriel report #2720 (at http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2720+0) states

<Tuathal> is an equally fine name for your father; we have found examples from the years 1450, 1512, and 1531 [3]. . . . Nuala daughter of Tuathal would have been called <Nuala inghean Tuathail> . . . .

[3] Index of Names in Irish Annals, s.n. Tuathal.

ui Ghallchobhair is a Gaelic clan affiliation byname in the genitive case suitable for its use here. Academy of St. Gabriel report #575 (at http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?575+0) states

On the other hand, "(given name) ingen uí G(h)allchob(h)air" would indicate that you belonged to the clan. One source has among the sons of Fland mac Irc one Gallchobor <ótát Húi Gallchobuir>. (3) This appears to be identifying this Gallchobor as the eponymous ancestor of the Uí Gallchobhair, from which we infer that the Uí Gallchobhair existed in the 12th c. . . .

The parentheses used in the previous paragraphs indicate optional letters. The older spelling was "Gallchobair;" the later was "Ghallchobhair."

3. O'Brien, M.A., ed., _Corpus Genealogiarum Hiberniae_, Vol. 1. (Dublin: Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1976), p. 388.

Based on the characterization in the latter reference of Ghallchobhair as "later" it would seem compatible with the late 15th C period common to the citations for the other elements, making the name as a whole authentic for Irish Gaelic of that time period. As the submitter failed to specify the language and/or culture she preferred, this seems the best we can accomplish by the least change to the submitted form.

It was the majority opinion at our meeting that the sable markings on the feet do not unduly impair identifiability of the ferret or its posture.

Anton Barsuk - Device resubmission to kingdom (Feb. 2012)

Per bend sable and Or, a bend between a badger rampant reguardant and three roses all counterchanged.
The previous version (which differed from this design only in adding a sable bordure) was returned for contrast issues with the bordure and for redrawing as the bend had been exceedingly narrow and the markings on the badger were more prominent and had less separation from the field, interfering with identification of the charge. Those issues have been addressed.

We omitted blazoning the markings on the badger in the interest of simplifying the blazon, noting that they are artistic detail not worth difference.

Elizabeth Grym - New name and device

Per bend ermine and azure, a roundel azure and a compass star elongated to base argent.
The submitter states "I'd like the last name to sound Grim."

Elizabeth is an English feminine given name. Withycombe s.n. Elizabeth attests this spelling from 1205.

Grym is an English surname. Reaney & Wilson s.n. Grime attests Thomas Grym 1309.

The submission was redrawn at kingdom because the original form was printed too small and the emblazon had some of the ermine spots running over onto the azure.

Jacob Redborne - Name resubmission to kingdom (Feb. 2012) (see Returns for device)

The original submission Jacob Redbrook was returned because the submitter's documentation did not give a period date for the name Redbrook and we were unable to document that particular spelling at the meeting.

Jacob is an English masculine given name. Reaney & Wilson s.n. Jacob attests this spelling from c1250.

Redborne is an English locative byname. Ekwall s.n. Redbourn attests Redborne from the Domesday Book.

Kaisa Turkuinen - New name and device

Argent, three moose statant and a bordure azure.
Kaisa is a Finnish feminine given name. The article "Vanhat imityyppimme (Finnish Names)" by Rouva Gertrud at http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/FinnishNamesArticle.htm attests a Kaisa Larssdotter from 1571, citing the source as "Suomen historiallisia lähteitä V:6. Suomen hopeaveroluettelot 1571 -- VI Pohjanmaa. Ed. Matti Walta. Suomen historiallinen seura 1985" p. 49.

Turkuinen is a constructed Finnish locative surname. The web page "A Brief History of Turku" at http://www.turku.fi/Public/default.aspx?nodeid=4905&culture=en-US&contentlan=2 states that "The year 1229 is also regarded as the year in which the City of Turku was founded." Rouva's article supra says of locatives that "The locative could be the name of the village or house. The locatives were formed in all the same ways as were patronymics (-nen, -n, -inen, -in)." Accordingly we consider that Turkuinen is a plausible Finnish locative meaning "of Turku".

Margaret Graham - New Name (see Returns for device)

No changes permitted.

Margaret is an English feminine given name. Academy of St. Gabriel report #2439 at http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2439+0 states

<Margaret> was an extremely popular name in both England and Lowland Scotland during your period [1]. We find it recorded in Lowland Scotland in various spellings, including several pet forms [2, 3]:

Margaret, 1502, 1505, 1508, 1520, 1521, 1529

Margeret, 1502, 1503

[1] Withycombe, E.G., _The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names_, 3rd ed. (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1988), s.n. Margaret.

[2] Talan Gwynek, "A List of Feminine Personal Names found in Scottish Records" (WWW: J. Mittleman, 1996), s.n Margaret. http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/scottishfem/

[3] Krossa, Sharon L. (Effric neyn Kenyeoch vc Ralte), "Early 16th Century Scottish Lowland Names", (WWW: Privately published, 7 December 2001). http://www.MedievalScotland.org/scotnames/lowland16/

Graham is an English surname. Reaney & Wilson s.n. Graham cite this spelling from the Domesday Book, while Black s.n. Graham shows it carried into Scotland and surviving later, with Henry de Graham attested from 1243 and James Graham from the time of Charles I (1600-1649).

Miyake Nobuhiro - New Badge

Per pale wert and sable, a griffin Or and a bordure ermine.
This submission is to be associated with his alternate name Gryffen de Corwyn.

Tymme le Brewere - New name and device

Sable, on a roundel embattled Or a single-winged single-headed chess knight sable.
The submitter sent in a device under the name Tim the Brewer with payment for both a name and device, but no name forms. In phone conversation he agreed to our putting together a name submission under a documentable form of that name. This is what we came up with on the fly, trusting later commentary to adjust it as close to the original as can be documented.

Tymme is an English masculine given name. Reaney & Wilson s.n. Timms attest William filius Tymme from 1285.

le Brewere is an English occupational byname. Reaney & Wilson s.n. Brewer attest Henry le Brewere from 1278.

The form was redone at kingdom because the original was printed too small, then signed by the original artist (who was in attendance.) A scan of the original form is included for comparison.

While blazoned by the submitter as a cog and negligibly different from a cogwheel, we have chosen the roundel embattled blazon to reflect the lack of any internal detail.


Carrek Mac Brian - Device resubmission to kingdom (Feb. 2012)

Per pale sable and gules, a lozenge argent.
This lovely design conflicts with the devices of Ragnarr Edmundarson (Oct. 2005 Trimaris) Per pale sable and gules, on a lozenge argent a crescent gules (one CD for removing the crescent) and of Moira Maureen ua Seamus of the Green Hills (July 1980 East) Per chevron azure and vert, a fusil argent (one CD for the field - a fusil is another name for a lozenge.)

Jacob Redborne - Device resubmission to kingdom (Feb. 2012)

Argent, a bendlet wavy between two bulls' heads cabossed gules.
The bulls' heads are excellent; the artistic issue with them is gone. Unfortunately, the bend which had been somewhat narrow is now anorexic and the waves which had been only slightly irregular are now excessively so. Please redo the bend some three times as wide and with smooth, evenly spaced and equal-sized waves of significant depth.

Margaret Graham - New device
Gules, a wyvern statant and on a chief sable three mullets of six points fesswise argent.
The sable wyvern and chief on the gules field violate the general rules of contrast. In order to register this design it would need to be documented as an exception based on period examples. While gules and sable are probably the easiest combination for documenting exceptions, it still has to be done before the submission could proceed.

Mullets are rarely if ever found in period armory other than with one point straight up. While this is (probably) not cause in itself for return, it is distinctly unusual.

Zarya Antonova zhena Barsukova Ana - Name and device resubmission to kingdom (Feb. 2012)

Per pale purpure and argent, on a chevron four pawprints and in base a Russian Orthodox cross all counterchanged.
These are quite different from the previous versions (see Roksana zhena Barsuk.)

The documentation for the name consists entirely of the following statement on the name form:

"Zaria is a grammatically feminine name because of its -ia ending. [per Wiktionary, etc.] It is the name of a Russian goddess in Russian folklore. [per Wikipedia, etc.] But we know it was also used as a human name because it is listed in Wickenden, albeit as a man's name. [2nd edition, under Zaria] Russian men frequently used grammatically feminine names. This would not exclude it from being a plausible woman's name, since there are other grammatically feminine names used by both men and women. [Gender Bending Names]" http://russianscaheraldry.wikispaces.com/Gender+Bending+Nmes [need to include copies of sources in submission]
No copies or printouts were included, so apart from the statement that Zaria is listed in Wickenden as a masculine name (which I have verified), the claims made lack any useful support. Absent such support, the name must be returned.

The device resubmission appears workable (albeit with a "step from period practice" for the use of pawprints, which have yet to be found in period heraldry), but it cannot be sent on without a documented name.

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