Minutes of the August, 2012 Heralds Meeting

Click here for a Printer Friendly (Black and White) version
Minutes Page
Main Herald's Web Page


The meeting was held on Sunday, 19 August 2012, in Stockton. The meeting started at 1:15PM and ended at 2:50PM. In attendance at this meeting were: Owen ap Morgan, Matins; Moira O’Connor, Vesper; Astriš of Swansvale, Latimer; Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym, Brachet; Caoilinn Rose Maddox, Sable Swan / Exchequer; Aasa Thorvaldsdottir, Greencloak; and Maxen Dawel ap Morgan, PaL.

Remaining 2012 meetings have been scheduled as follows: September 23, October 21, and November 11. There is no meeting scheduled for December 2012; the January 2013 meeting will be held the Sunday of 12th Night, as usual.

Starting time: As my father has started holding Quaker meetings for worship in our home some Sunday mornings, heraldry meetings will now start at 1:00 PM in order to avoid conflict. Please do not arrive before 12:30 PM.

PLEASE NOTE: For the present, the regular meetings are now taking place in Stockton at the home of Owen ap Morgan, Matins Herald:

2023 Oak Branch Dr
Stockton, CA 95205
(209) 463-6861 (message)
THIS IS SOON TO CHANGE, as the Matins office will be changing hands. Contact Owen for directions. The drive is approximately an hour from Sacramento and an hour and a half from either Berkeley or San Jose via Livermore.

Walk-in submissions will be held over until the following month unless they arrive early enough to be processed in before the scheduled start of the meeting. This policy is subject to change when the new Matins takes over.

We are conducting some preliminary name research through the West Kingdom heraldic consultation mailing list wkheralds_consults@yahoogroups.com . This list is open to all those interested in West Kingdom book heraldry: both names and devices, and either to contribute or to ask questions. To join the list, please subscribe through Yahoo or at wkheralds_consults-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. If you subscribe by e-mail, you can complete the process by replying to the confirmation e-mail; it is not necessary to log in to Yahoo. Please note that initial posts are moderated and thus may not appear on the list immediately.



Moira, Vesper: The new Matins will be Gwenhfwyfaer, with Frederick as her Drop Dead. They will both start training with Owen. Roster letters will be going out in the next week. Our next report is due September 1st.

Owen, Matins: It seems the West is the last kingdom declining to have the Pennsic consultation table accept submissions for them. We don't mind. There was one Westerner who had submissions forms prepared there this year, and those had serious errors . . .

OSCAR now has an option to send automatic e-mail notifications about Laurel decisions to those submitters who entered a valid e-mail address on their forms. We will not be using this function (Vesper's decision, but I agree.) Laurel decisions are written at the senior herald comprehension level and often require interpretation for the general public.

Now that a successor has been chosen for the Matins office, we will be phasing in the changeover. Gwenhwyfaer is being trained in the preparation of LOIs using OSCAR. We still need to work out details of where things will be stored (books, pavilion, etc.) and where meetings will be held. I'm also looking for a volunteer to take over administration of the wkheralds_consults e-mail consultation list. Failing that, I'll probably make the list completely open rather than shut it down.

Consulting heralds need to start watching out for the new armorial style requirements in SENA. Some things which have long been taken for granted now require documentation with period armory examples. To assist in accomplishing that we are looking to acquire some additional armory books, starting with the two published volumes of the Dictionary of British Arms which we did not already have.

Gwenhwyfaer, Brachet: It’s been a really slow month. We were completely caught up and took a break, and haven’t been able to start back up due to illness.

Astriš, Latimer / East Bay Brachet: Nothing new since last month. Next Consultation Table will be at Mists Coronet / October Crown / Cynagua Coronet. Have had a request to hold a Consultation table at Danegeld Tor Championship.

East Bay Brachet has been on hiatus due to Pennsic.

Eilis, Baldric: No report (out of kingdom for Pennsic.)

Ketiley, Banner (Acting): Nothing to report.

Aasa, Greencloak (Acting): It has been a slow month for us as well, and Purgatorio is this upcoming weekend.

Hirsch, Golem: No report.

Aurelia, Seawolf (Acting): No report.

Caoilinn, Sable Swan (Acting) / Exchequer: Very slow month due to illness, still working on submissions.

Bianca, Stellanordica (Acting): Coronet/Investiture happened and everything went well. We are still working on submissions.


The next Known World Heralds and Scribes Symposium will be held in the Barony of Bjornsborg in the Kingdom of Ansteorra (San Antonio, Texas) on June 28-30, 2013. More information to follow.


VOICE HERALDRY: Greencloak will continue to hold voice heraldry training sessions at the beginning of events to encourage involvement at the event.

MAILING LIST: The West Kingdom College of Heralds has a mailing list for internal communication. Any herald is welcome to join by request. To join the list, please subscribe at wkheralds-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.

ELECTRONIC RESOURCES: Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at http://www.sca.org/heraldry, including the Laurel home page, the on-line Armorial and Ordinary (with search capabilities) and The Academy of St. Gabriel (an onomastic and heraldic consultation service). The West Kingdom Heraldry site and the West Kingdom Awards List can be accessed through the West Kingdom site, http://www.westkingdom.org. Heraldic queries may also be addressed to Moira at herald@westkingdom.org -- answers may take a few days.

West Kingdom College of Heralds Minutes are published on the web. They may be read at or printed from the heralds' website at http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Minutes.htm. There is a colored version and a printer-friendly black and white version available.

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. The meetings are held most Mondays at 7:00 pm at 4317 Alderwood Way, Sacramento, CA 95864. Call Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym (Brachet) for more information, (916) 323-4268 or email her, .

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. Please consider attending – you do not have to be able to attend every week. They are a fast way to learn how the Rules of Submission work and how to research armory. These meetings have changed location and are now in Walnut Creek on Wednesday nights. If you are interested, contact the Latimer Herald, Astriš of Swansvale (Gretchen Lebednik) at .


The cover letters, acceptances and returns for the past can be found at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/. If you are interested in responding to some of the calls for commentary put out by the Laurel Sovereign of Arms, please be sure to visit the site.


Cover letter

From Laurel: KWHSS 2012 Thank Yous and KWHSS 2013 Announcement

The 2012 Known World Heralds and Scribes Symposium has come and gone. The Symposium was fantastic in no little part because of the event staff and the teachers who volunteered to share their knowledge with all. I very much appreciate all the hard work the event staff put in to this, and thank the teachers for their help.

We have decided! The 2013 Known World Heralds and Scribes Symposium (KWHSS) will be held in the Barony of Bjornsborg in the Kingdom of Ansteorra (San Antonio, Texas) on June 28-30, 2013. More information to follow.

From Pelican and Wreath: Submissions Analysis for June

Just like last month, we are sharing our counts of the results of considering submissions this month under both the Rules for Submissions and the Standards for Evaluation. These counts include registered or returned items only; no administrative actions such as transfers or acceptances, associations of existing armory, heraldic wills, or other such letters will be included in these counts.

"Armory style" and "armory conflict" indicate if a submitted item could only be passed under one rule set or the other due to conflict or style issues. For example, a submission that could not be registered under the old rules due to conflict but could be registered without conflict under the new standards will be counted as "passed under the new standards, but not old" as armory conflict.

If math is not your thing, it may be interesting to note that if all submissions were considered only under the Rules for Submissions, there would be an 86% success rate. Considered only under the Standards for Evaluation, there would be an 87% success rate.

From Palimpsest and Pelican: Tidying up Some Typos

It has come to our attention that there are two minor errors in the Standards for Evaluation of Names and Armory. As these were unintentional errors that do not seriously affect the Standards or their implementation, we are simply correcting them.

First, in the Table of Regional Naming Groups and Their Mixes in Appendix C, Italian is shown as a compatible Naming Group for Iberian, but the reverse is not true. This is an oversight, and Iberian should be listed as a compatible Naming Group for Italian for both time periods.

Second, in Appendix F, under A Partial List of Registerable Tinctures, it says that the "main heraldic tinctures are listed in A.4.B.1". This is a pure typo, and it should instead refer to A.3.B.1.

From Pelican: Lingual Mixes in the Standards for Evaluation

Several questions have emerged about how to use Appendix C: Regional Naming Groups and their Mixes. This aims to clarify these issues.

The temporal divisions in Appendix C (550-1100 and 1100-1600) are not two different naming groups. A single regional naming group as described in PN2C2 exists from 550 until the end of period. The reason that we distinguish an "early" period from a "late" period is that the allowable lingual mixes change over time. Thus, a given name dated to 1010 can be mixed with a byname dated to 1500 if both are in a single naming group. On the other hand, an Arabic given name dated to 1050 cannot be mixed with a byname from Turkish, as Turkish is only compatible with Arabic names found in the "late" period.

Additional lingual mixes may be registered, but the combination of name elements must be documented. The Standards say "Names that mix name phrases from different times and/or places are allowed if the name meets one of the following conditions.... c. The name mixes name phrases from naming pools that can be documented as having been used together in the personal names of real people." This is a higher standard than the standard of the Rules for Submissions, in which substantial contact between two cultures was sufficient to allow elements from two languages to be combined. This is in part because "substantial contact" was never well defined, so that the standards had varied over time for how much contact was required. Additionally, decisions varied depending on who had commented and hence presented evidence when the decision needed to be made. Now, European cultures who lived in close contact are allowed under the standards of Appendix C and do not need to be documented individually.

The Standards for Evaluation also remove the problem of "steps from period practice" from names. Under the Rules for Submissions, temporal and linguistic incompatibility were treated as steps from period practice. An item with two steps from period practice was returned, while an item with a single step from period practice was registered. This created confusion, as we defined multiple "languages" separated by time in some regions, while treating other regions as a single "language" over time. Under the Standards for Evaluation, we are not using steps from period practice. Instead, a name (including lingual and temporal mixes) is either registerable or unregisterable. As such, only those mixes that were not a "step from period practice" are allowed outside of the framework of Appendix C.

From Pelican: Some Name Resources (an Ongoing Series)

This month, in honor of the discussion of Appendix C, I'm going to discuss the philosophy behind the regional naming groups. They are not intended to be groups of languages that are closely related linguistically. Instead, they are intended to be groups of languages that share a set of names in common. Thus, Welsh, a Brythonic Celtic language, is grouped with English, a Germanic language, because names were borrowed freely back and forth by the 16th century. Likewise, Basque is grouped with other languages spoken in modern Spain and Portugal, although it is not related to them. This is because names were borrowed back and forth.

This reminds us, then, that names and languages are not identical: typically "English" names may be Aramaic, Greek, Latin, French, German, Norse, or Welsh in origin, to name a few languages. However, once these names are used by English people, we talk about them as English names.

Let us also be clear: just because we allow these naming groups to be mixed between elements does not remove the requirement that a name phrase (a given name or byname) be consistent with a single time and place.

From Wreath: Presumption Due to Name and Armory Combination

A submission this month required us to consider whether the use of an escarbuncle of chain Or in combination with the surname de Navarra is presumptuous. The arms of Navarre are Gules, an escarbuncle of chain within and conjoined to an orle of chain Or. The combination of an escarbuncle of chain Or with the surname Navarre would be a possible violation of section XI.2 of the Rules for Submissions, which says that "Armory that asserts a strong claim of identity in the context of the submitters name is considered presumptuous," and of section A6E of the Standards for Evaluation, which states "the use of a piece of historical armory combined with the family name of the holder may be presumptuous."

The October 2001 Cover Letter says "Note that if a real-world coat of arms is not considered important enough to protect in the SCA, a CD will certainly suffice to remove any problem of presumption due to the combination of name and armory." This precedent is repeated in section A6E of the Standards for Evaluation. Precedent also says:

[using a yale in combination with the surname Beaufort] This badge was used both by the Beaufort family and by Margaret's descendants, the Tudor kings of England. While we might forbid someone using the Beaufort name to register a device that is a close variant of this badge, the submitted design is three CDs from it, which more than sufficient to clear the name/device combination from appearance of pretense by the standards set on the October 2001 Cover Letter.

Therefore the only reason to disallow it would be if we protected any use of the Beaufort yale with that surname. We disallow certain combinations of charges and surnames, such as disallowing the Lancaster rose with the surname Lancaster. However no evidence was presented that the Beaufort family is important enough that their badge should be protected in that manner. While Margaret clearly is important as the mother of Henry VII, she was not the only Beaufort to use this badge.

Knowledge of the use of the yale as a royal badge is relatively limited, known primarily to specialists. Since it is specialist knowledge, it does not rise to the importance of badges like the Tudor rose, which are known to anyone who has studied the Wars of the Roses. The use of the Beaufort yale will not be restricted. [Rosalind Beaufort, A-Lochac, December 2012 LoAR]

Like with the Beaufort yale, there are three CD/DCs between the arms of Navarre and the submitted device in question. In this case, the kingdom and royal family of Navarre are certainly more important than the Beaufort family. No evidence was presented, nor any found, that indicated that the escarbuncle of chain with or without the orle of chain was used as a charge by anyone outside of the royal family of Navarre. Similarly, as with the Tudor rose, the arms of Navarre are not considered specialist knowledge.

It should be noted that the charge used here is an escarbuncle of chain throughout Or, not within and conjoined to an orle. However, the escarbuncle of chain, alternatively described as a cross and saltire of chain, seems unique to the royal family of Navarre. Examples could be found in Iberian armory of a saltire and orle of chain, a chain in bend, orles of chain, and other uses of chains as charges, but no other escarbuncles of chain. The orle of chain itself seems unremarkable, although it may run afoul of our reserved charge of an orle of chain to members of the chivalry. However, given the variety of ways chains were used as ordinaries, we are disinclined to restrict the use of an escarbuncle of chain entirely.

Therefore, similar to the combination of a red rose and the surname Lancaster, or the white rose and the surname York, the use of an escarbuncle of chain Or in combination with the surname Navarre is considered presumptuous.

West Kingdom errata

Cormac Ciśin. Name correction from Cormac an Ciśin.

In registering his device, the LoAR referenced his name as Cormac an Ciśin. His name was registered as Cormac_Ciśin on the April 2011 LoAR.

West Kingdom acceptances

Aine inghean Tuathail ui Ghallchobhair. Name and device. Vert, a ferret statant argent marked sable and on a chief Or three oak leaves vert.

The submitter requested authenticity; this name is authentic for 15th century Irish Gaelic.

Some commenters felt this depiction, complete with a black mask, looked too much like the New World black-footed ferret, which was not discovered until well after period, and thus would not be registerable. However, the common domestic ferret is considered a subspecies of the European polecat, which also exhibits a dark mask and other similar markings. As we are no longer in the habit of specifying which specific species of animal is being depicted, and this is could easily be described as a European ferret, we will assume it is such and register it.

Anton Barsuk. Device. Per bend sable and Or, a bend between a badger rampant reguardant and three roses all counterchanged.

Elizabeth Grym. Name and device. Per bend ermine and azure, a roundel azure and a compass star elongated to base argent.

This name does not conflict with the registered Elizabeth Greene. The bynames share only the first consonant cluster, making them substantially different in sound and appearance under both the Rules for Submissions and the Standards for Evaluation.

There is a step from period practice for the use of a compass star.

Jacob Redbrook. Name.

Submitted as Jacob Redborne, the name was a resubmission of a kingdom return of Jacob Redbrook, which was returned for lack of documentation of the byname. The submitter indicated that if the original submission could be registered, he would prefer it to the submitted form.

Dolphin was able to date the original byname to 1627 in the IGI Parish Extracts. Edelweiss was also able to date Redbrooke to various dates in the 16th century. Therefore, we have restored it to the originally submitted form.

Kaisa Turkuinen. Name and device. Argent, three moose statant and a bordure azure.

Margaret Graham. Name.

This does not conflict with the registered Margaret Gresham. The bynames are substantially different in sound and appearance. The submitted name can be either a single syllable name or a two syllable name. Even in the case with the same number of syllables, the vowels in both syllables as well as the consonant cluster between them are different, making the names different enough in sound and appearance to register.

Melissa Kendal of Westmoreland. Reblazon of device. (Fieldless) A quill pen bendwise sinister sable ribbed gules.

Blazoned when registered in October 1976 as (Fieldless) A quill pen sable, ribbed gules, the quill pen is bendwise sinister.

Miyake Nobuhiro. Badge for alternate name Gryffen de Corwyn. Per pale vert and sable, a griffin Or and a bordure ermine.

Tim the Brewer. Name and device. Sable, on a cogwheel Or a bat-winged single-headed chess knight sable.

Submitted as Tymme le Brewere, the submitter indicated that he really preferred Tim the Brewer. Dolphin was able to document Tim as a given name from the IGI Parish Extracts from 1575 on. The byname the Brewer can be justified as a vernacular form of le Brewer, dated in Bardsley (s.n. Brewer) to 1327. We have made these changes in order to meet the submitter's request.

West Kingdom returns


In Service,
Owen ap Morgan
Matins Herald

SUBMISSONS – 19 August, XLVII (2012)


Finna kǫttr Gošormsdóttir - New Name and Device

Per pale wavy sable and argent, a nude woman statant affronty and a cat sejant counterchanged, on a chief vert three pawprints argent.
Finna is an Old Norse feminine given name attested with 3 instances in Geirr Bassi (p.9).

kǫttr is an Old Norse byname meaning "cat" attested in Geirr Bassi (p.25).

Gošormsdóttir is a Norse feminine patronymic byname from the given name Gošormr. The construction follows the general pattern for names ending in -r shown in Geirr Bassi. For the root name, Lind (s.n. Gušžormr) cites "Goš-, Gož-, Godormr Dr 14217, Ln1 35423" (col.397, about 2/3 down) and the apparent genitive "Goš-, God-, Gothorms An I 862, 1224, 1234, Fms I 10727" (col. 398 near the bottom.) The header spelling Gušžormr from Lind is also attested in Geirr Bassi with a single instance (p.10). The Viking Answer Lady's web page at http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONMensNames.shtml gives Gošormr as a header spelling, citing the Nordiskt Runnamnslexikon and Scandinavian Personal Names in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire.

There is some question whether SENA A3D2c should be interpreted to require documentation for a charge group combining animate charges affronty and in profile when they do not otherwise share comparable postures. As the issue is open, we send this on for discussion and ruling.

Katherine Gotehird - New Name and Device

Per chevron indented azure and vert, a goat dormant regardant erminois.
Katherine is an English feminine given name. Reaney & Wilson (s.n. Curzon) attest a Katherine la Curzoun from 1316.

Gotehird is an English occupational byname meaning "goatherd". The Middle English Dictionary entry for g{o-}t at http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=byte&byte=68831866&egdisplay=open&egs=68869028 under definition 5.b lists an entry:

(1285) Chester R.in Chet.n.s.84 214: Will. Gotehird.
The Sept. 2007 LOAR, A-Lochac, Isobel le Bretoun states in reference to "an ermine dormant regardant":
"Note that the head should still be on the field; if it's tucked into the creature's body, the creature may well be returned as unidentifiable. A dormant creature should not be curled into a ball in a naturalistic depiction of the creature. A creature in a ball may warrant return for non-period style and an unblazonable position."
As this caution is not presented as an absolute ban, we pass this along for discussion and ruling.

The submitter will be advised to draw the ermine spots larger.

William Melrose - New Name

William is a Scots masculine given name. Black (s.n. Melrose) attests a William Melros from 1468 and a William Melross from 1554 & 1564. (Neither of these attested individuals seems remotely important enough to protect.)

Melrose is a Scots surname. IGI extracted records show:
Stephanus MelroseMaleBaptism/Christening03 Sep 1570 HOWDEN,YORK,ENGLANDBatch P00743-1Origin England-ODMSource film 0844553-555
Johne MelroseMaleBaptism/Christening26 Jun 1575 SAINT CUTHBERTS, EDINBURGH, MIDLOTHIAN, SCOTLANDBatch C11986-1Origin Scotland-ODM Source film 1066751, 0103053


Senan O'Wray of Lymricke - Name and device resub to kingdom (Jan. 2005)

Per saltire sable and argent, two swans naiant argent.
Senan is a Gaelic masculine given name. (The female submitter knows this and doesn't care.) This unaccented spelling is attested in the "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Senįn" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien) at http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Senan.shtml from 1013, 1066, and 1103.

O'Wray is a purported Gaelic clan name which, so far as we can tell, does not exist. While the surname Wray can be found in English names from Ireland dated in the 1640s, there is no evidence that Wr- was ever used in period Gaelic, Anglicized or otherwise. If the submitter were willing to drop the "O'-" the name might pass; if she were willing to drop "O'Wray" entirely there should be no difficulty.

of Lymricke is an Anglicized locative byname referring to Limerick, Ireland. The submitter provides a photocopy of a map of "The Citie of Lymricke" said to be from 1587. While no title page copy is provided, the source is identified as "Historical Maps of Ireland" by Michael Swift, Chartwell Books 1999 Edison NJ, Produced by PRC Publishing Ltd London, ISBN 0 78581 109 5.

The device is in conflict with the device of Swannoc Foxton (Mar. 2008 East) Vert, in bend two swans naiant argent. The field is different, counting a single point, but the arrangement of Senan's swans is forced by their tincture and the field, so it cannot count for the necessary second point.

Skįld-Lošinn žurs - New name and device

Per chevron gules and Or, an open book in trian aspect and an axe Or and a wolf's head cabossed sable.
Skįld- is a Norse prefixed byname attested in Geirr Bassi.

Lošinn is a Norse masculine given name attested in Geirr Bassi.

žurs is a Norse byname attested in Geirr Bassi.

The use of a given name plus two descriptive bynames in Old Norse is not listed as an accepted pattern under appendix A of SENA. Consequently this name cannot now be registered unless such constructions can be documented from period sources. Ideally the supporting examples shoud use one byname prefixed. (In fact, this may be necessary.) Alternatively, if the submitter were willing to convert žurs to a patronymic, the pattern would then be on the accepted list. One similar-sounding possibility would be Žórisson (from the given name Žórir attested in Geirr Bassi with 55 instances.)

By precedent and by relative size, the three charges here are a single primary group. A single group may not contain three different types of charge (the "slot-machine" rule.) In addition, while open books should be shown at a slight vertical angle to make the curve of the pages visible, the skewed version used here is not acceptable. The submitter was informed of these problems and we have been in correspondence about possible remedies, as yet without result. Concern was also expressed at the meeting that the extensive white markings on the wolf's head, along with the angle at which the snout is seen, make it appear confusingly similar to a badger's head. In any case, the device cannot be sent on without a name.

Minutes Page
Main Herald's Web Page