Click here for a Printer Friendly
(Black and White) version
Main Herald's Web Page
The meeting was held on Sunday, 22 April 2012, in Stockton. The meeting started at 2:30PM and ended rather later. In attendance at this meeting were: Owen ap Morgan, Matins; Moira O’Connor, Vesper; Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym, Brachet; Caoilinn Rose Maddox, Sable Swan / Exchequer; Aasa Thorvaldsdottir, Greencloak; Frederick of Holland, PaL; Maxen Dawel ap Morgan, PaL; and Aine inghean Tuathail ui Ghallchobhair, deputy to Pinnacle.
COLLEGE OF HERALDS MEETINGS
2012 meetings have been scheduled as follows: May 20, June 10, July 15, August 19, September 23, October 21, and November 11. There is no meeting scheduled for December 2012; the January 2013 meeting will be held the Sunday of 12th Night, as usual.
Starting time: As my father has started holding Quaker meetings for worship in our home some Sunday mornings, heraldry meetings will now start at 1:00 PM in order to avoid conflict. Please do not arrive before 12:30 PM.
PLEASE NOTE: Unless and until specified otherwise, the regular meetings are now taking place in Stockton at the home of Owen ap Morgan, Matins Herald:
2023 Oak Branch DrContact Owen for directions. The drive is approximately an hour from Sacramento and an hour and a half from either Berkeley or San Jose via Livermore.
Stockton, CA 95205
(209) 463-6861 (message)
Walk-in submissions are generally permitted but not encouraged, as they do not allow for advance review and prep work.. If you are bringing the paperwork for a submission to a meeting, please plan to arrive by 12:30 PM to allow the file to be pulled or set up. For meetings not held in Stockton (Collegium, 12th Night, etc.) sufficient advance notice to pull any existing file will be required.
WARNING: Recent meetings have seen a high number of walk-in submissions which have seriously delayed the start of the meetings, wasting the time of the heralds attending while Matins and the exchequer prepare those submissions for processing. This is unfair to our volunteers and will not be permitted to continue. Starting in May, walk-in submissions which have not been pre-processed before the scheduled start of the meeting will be held until the end of the meeting, at which point those in attendance will be given the choice whether to stay and process the walk-ins or to defer them until the next scheduled meeting.
We are conducting some preliminary name research through the West Kingdom heraldic consultation mailing list firstname.lastname@example.org . This list is open to all those interested in West Kingdom book heraldry: both names and devices, and either to contribute or to ask questions. To join the list, please subscribe through Yahoo or at email@example.com. If you subscribe by e-mail, you can complete the process by replying to the confirmation e-mail; it is not necessary to log in to Yahoo. Please note that initial posts are moderated and thus may not appear on the list immediately.PERSONNEL -- RECENT CHANGES AND POSITIONS AVAILABLE:
Moira, Vesper: Vesper has been approved for an additional two year term out of necessity.
Owen, Matins: Due to significant delays in the College meetings resulting from walk-in submissions, a new policy is being instituted. Any submissions brought to the meeting which are not processed in (put in folders, fees recorded, cover sheet inserted, necessary scanning done) will be set aside at least until the other meeting business is complete. At that time they MAY be considered if the consensus of the attendees is to continue working. Otherwise they will be considered at the next subsequent meeting. It is not fair to ask people attending the meeting to wait for administrative actions, especially when the time those consume is a significant fraction of the entire length of the meeting.
The preferred submission method is, and long has been, to mail submissions in advance of the meeting. If you choose to have submissions hand-delivered to a meeting, make certain they arrive in a timely manner.
Gwenhwyfaer, Brachet: Research is continuing on letters from the latter part of March.
Astrið, Latimer / East Bay Brachet: Consultation at Mists coronet was successful. Use of an iPad loaded with copies of various online articles seems to work well at least for smaller consultation turnouts.
Eilis, Baldric: All is well at this point.
Ketiley, Banner (Acting): Courts were held at March Crown. Uther ended up with the ceremony books, which Michael will try to retrieve into the heralds' keeping.
Aasa, Greencloak (Acting): June Crown may be a Prova-style round robin tournament; this would create a great demand for field heralds. March Crown, held traditionally, barely had enough voice heralds to cover what was needed.
Hirsch, Golem: No report.
Gillian, Seawolf: (Third hand via Anne and Moira) Seawolf is looking for a successor. The Mists Seneschal needs to get Vesper's approval for any new Seawolf.
Caoilinn, Sable Swan (Acting) / Exchequer: His Highness will now be submitting court reports to Sable Swan.
Bianca, Stellanordica (Acting): No report.
Earl P JonesSubmissions sent to other addresses may or may not reach Matins in a timely manner (or at all.)
ATTN: Matins Herald
2023 Oak Branch Dr
Stockton CA 95205
|Black and white line
outline and internal line
|Black and white line
outline with solid black
sections colored in.
|Greyscale copy of
VOICE HERALDRY: Greencloak will continue to hold voice heraldry training sessions at the beginning of events to encourage involvement at the event.
MAILING LIST: The West Kingdom College of Heralds has a mailing list for internal communication. Any herald is welcome to join by request. To join the list, please subscribe at firstname.lastname@example.org.
ELECTRONIC RESOURCES: Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at http://www.sca.org/heraldry, including the Laurel home page, the on-line Armorial and Ordinary (with search capabilities) and The Academy of St. Gabriel (an onomastic and heraldic consultation service). The West Kingdom Heraldry site and the West Kingdom Awards List can be accessed through the West Kingdom site, http://www.westkingdom.org. Heraldic queries may also be addressed to Moira at email@example.com -- answers may take a few days.
West Kingdom College of Heralds Minutes are published on the web. They may be read at or printed from the heralds' website at http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Minutes.htm. There is a colored version and a printer-friendly black and white version available.
These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. The meetings are held most Mondays at 7:00 pm at 4317 Alderwood Way, Sacramento, CA 95864. Call Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym (Brachet) for more information, (916) 323-4268 or email her, .
EAST BAY COMMENTING MEETINGS
These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. Please consider attending – you do not have to be able to attend every week. They are a fast way to learn how the Rules of Submission work and how to research armory. These meetings have changed location and are now in Walnut Creek on Wednesday nights. If you are interested, contact the Latimer Herald, Astrið of Swansvale (Gretchen Lebednik) at .
EXCERPTS FROM THE LOARThe cover letters, acceptances and returns for the past can be found at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/. If you are interested in responding to some of the calls for commentary put out by the Laurel Queen of Arms, please be sure to visit the site.
FEBRUARY 2012 LOAR
From Pelican: Byname Presumption
In the September 2011 Letter of Acceptances and Returns, we asked for commentary on a proposal to clarify what bynames would be considered presumptuous. The Rules explicitly allow the registration of given names that are identical to titles when those names are found in period and they are used in a context that is not a claim to rank.
Effective immediately, a byname that is potentially a claim to rank is likewise allowed when it meets the following criteria. First, it must be attested as a period byname or constructed from an attested given name element. Bynames that are constructed following patterns of types of bynames are likely to be considered inappropriate claims. For example, you could not use the pattern of "family names based on titles" to construct the unattested Italian family name Viscontessi. Second, it must have been used by people who had no particular claim to rank. Bynames that were only used by people holding a rank we protect will generally be considered to make that claim. So, Fitzroy became a surname and did not imply any close relationship with a king. Likewise, Visconti became a regular family name and does not imply that you are close kin to a viscount. Finally, the byname itself must not a direct claim to a rank that we protect. So Visconte would not be allowed, but Visconti would, and Master would not be allowed, but Masters would.
We note that under the proposed rules, submitters may make claims to ranks that they have permanently attained; if this proposal is adopted, this ruling should be understood to mean that no submitter could register a byname that is a direct claim to rank that they have not permanently attained.
A byname that meets all three of these criteria (is not a direct claim to rank, is used by people who have no particular rank, and is attested to period) would be registerable, while a byname that does not would generally be considered to create the appearance of a presumption of rank.
The combination of bynames would be considered in the same way: adding a locative element after a byname like Visconti would not necessarily be presumptuous, as Visconti da Firenze or Visconti di Firenze is not a claim to be the viscount of Florence (that'd be Visconte di Firenze).
From Pelican: Some Name Resources (a Series): Making Sense out of Languages
The idea of a language as a single entity that is more or less the same across an entire country is a post-period idea. Instead, in the Middle Ages, the dialect spoken in an area gradually changed as one moved from north to south or east to west, so that the kind of French spoken in Paris slowly faded until it became the kind of Occitan spoken in Marseilles. Even within what today we call French, a variety of dialects were spoken. Getting everyone to speak the language of the capital was a project that continued until well after the end of our period.
For purposes of registration, we have to define lines between languages, even if it wasn't always that clear-cut in period. Thus, we don't distinguish between the kind of Castilian (Spanish) spoken in Leon from that spoken in Aragon, even though linguists treat them as different during the Middle Ages. However, we do distinguish between Catalan and Occitan, two different languages spoken in eastern Spain and southern France. Likewise, we don't distinguish between the kind of Italian spoken in Tuscany from the kind of Italian spoken in Venice or in southern Italy. Thus, a registerable name may combine elements from Venice, from Tuscany, and from southern Italy without penalty.
For authenticity requests, on the other hand, we pay attention to those differences between regional forms. An authentic name should include elements from relatively close locations, because regional differences in name usage are often quite different. A name submission that requests authenticity for Venice should not depend on documentation from southern Italy (or at least the submitter should anticipate that the form of the name will be changed from the documented form).
From Wreath: Redefining Sustained Charges
Da'ud ibn Auda, in September 1994, re-stated a precedent from Bruce Draconarius of Mistholme set in July 1992 in the following manner:
Regarding the "significance" of the halberd, as Green Crown noted, a charge consisting mostly of a long skinny handle will always have difficulty matching the visual weight of other charges, but here the sizes of the charges are about the same as would be expected if they were in fess a bear and a halberd. That seems to be a reasonable rule of thumb for determining sustained (and qualifying for a CD), as opposed to maintained (and not qualifying for a CD), charges.
On the September 2011 Cover Letter, the College of Arms was asked to discuss our current standards governing sustained and maintained charges. The original ruling that gave rise to our use of sustained states:
Either sustaining or supporting will be used when a "held" charge is of comparable size to the beast holding it; maintaining will continue to be used when the held charge is of negligible heraldic difference. [Brayden Avenel Durrant, A-Calontir, July 1992 LoAR]
However, current practice has expanded the definition of "comparable size" to where we are now comparing the longest dimension of each charge, and if they are equal, declare the two charges to be co-primary. As a similar discussion started on the September 2008 Cover Letter stated, "Current practice has reached the point of reducto ad absurdum: extremely skinny charges, such as a spear, are being granted equivalent weight to a large creature such as a dragon segreant, merely because the long dimension of the two is equivalent. Were the same charges not touching, the spear would unmistakably be a secondary."
The terms sustained and maintained were largely co-opted by the Society for use in our blazon. In period blazons, the majority of held charges use some variant of the term holding; while most of the held items do not appear to have been considered significant enough for use as cadency steps, it is possible that some were.
As the current distinction between sustained and maintained has become unwieldy, we are hereby returning to focusing on visual weight. This standard does not rely upon rulers or other precise measurements: just as with secondary and primary charges, when the visual weight difference makes the appropriate charge group unclear, the item will be returned for redraw.
Most charges held by animate charges are maintained, and therefore will continue to not contribute to difference. Only rarely will a held charge have sufficient visual weight to be considered significant.
There are three possible cases:
Touching charges with the same visual weight will be considered equal charges and part of the same charge group (co-primaries, co-secondaries, etc). Such arrangements will be blazoned with their placement first. For example, in fess an X sustained by a Y.
Touching charges where the held charge is obviously less than half of the visual weight of the holding charge will be considered maintained charges, and not count for difference. Such arrangements will be blazoned as in recent practice, with the holding charge first and using the term maintaining. For example, a X maintaining a Y.
Touching charges where the held charge is more than half of the visual weight of the holding charge, yet clearly not equal, may be considered either maintained charges or, rarely, sustained secondary charges. If the holding charge is a primary charge, and the held charge would easily be considered a secondary charge if it were not held by the primary charge, then the held charge will be considered a sustained secondary charge. Such arrangements will be blazoned with the primary charge first. For example, an X sustaining a Y. However, if the holding charge is not a primary charge, the held charge will be considered a maintained charge and not count for difference.
Held charges that blur the distinction between a secondary charge and a primary charge will be registered as a secondary charge until the September 2012 Laurel meetings. After that date, any charges that blur the distinction between a secondary charge and a primary charge, or between a maintained charge and a secondary charge, will be returned for redraw.
Since we still desire to distinguish between maintained charges, which do not count for difference, and those charges which do count as either secondary or equal charges, we will continue to use the term maintained for maintained charges, but will allow more variation in blazon terms such as holding instead of sustaining for co-primary charges as long as the blazon remains clear.
West Kingdom corrections
Listed on the LoAR under the name Cormac an Ciúin, the name was registered without the article on the April 2011 LoAR.
West Kingdom acceptances
This is an appeal of the Laurel return of the name in September 2008. At that time, the name was returned because the spelling Arianwen was unregisterable. In September 2011, the spelling Arianwen was ruled registerable as a late period spelling of an early Welsh name. We do not know what the early spelling of the name was; therefore, we allow later period spellings to be registered. As such, this name can be registered.
Commenters observed that this name might conflict with Kathryn Morgan; that name should have been released when Kathryn's name was changed to Emma la Rousse d'Argentain in April 1996. This item is dealt with in errata.
Even if this had not been released, the names Catriona and Kathryn, while etymologically linked, are quite different in sound and appearance, at least as different as Mary and Miriam, which are similarly linked but are given as an example of two names that do not conflict. Thus these names do not conflict.
Blazoned when registered in June 1995 as Per chevron sable estoilly argent and argent, in base a rose sable barbed vert and seeded gules, on a chief argent a Greek androsphinx guardant gules, we are clarifying the gender and posture of the sphinx.
Reblazoned in October 2010 as Azure, in pale a scarf enarched gules with a stripe purpure sustained by a blonde mermaid contourny proper, we are clarifying the relative sizes of the charges.
Reblazoned in February 2011 as Argent, in fess a wyvern erect contourny azure sustaining by the blade a sword inverted sable, a bordure azure, we are clarifying the relative sizes of the charges.
Her previous device, Per bend sable and gules, a swan rousant contourny and in chief three fleurs-de-lys argent, is retained as a badge.
The submitter requested authenticity for 12th century Norse. The structure of this name is far more likely for an earlier period; by the 12th century, descriptive bynames like járnsaxa have largely disappeared.
His previous name, Duncan McClay, is retained as an alternate name.
Blazoned on the Letter of Intent as a drakkar, the prow and stern in this depiction do not follow the S-shapes of a drakkar. While there is no difference granted for type of ship, we have reblazoned it as a galley to better match this depiction.
His previous device, Argent, a horse's head couped gules, on a chief sable two increscents argent, is retained as a badge.
Reblazoned in May 1992 as Argent, a giant dung beetle proper, we are clarifying the tincture and posture of the beetle.
Submitted as Waleric von Brederek_, the dated form of the locative is Bredereke. We have made that change in order to register the name.
Commenters could not find the spelling Waleric in period Germany, but could find it in England. As such, this name mixes English and German, which is a step from period practice.
Please advise the submitter to draw the crosses larger to better fill the available space.
West Kingdom returns
Owen ap Morgan
SUBMISSONS – 22 April, XLVI (2012)ITEMS SENT TO LAUREL
Alice Elizabeth Wycliffe - New Name
The submitter cited "Late Sixteenth Century English Given Names" at http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/eng16/eng16ffreq.html for the given names, "History of Names" at http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/patterns.html for the construction, and http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Wycliffe for the locative. In view of the more useful IGI citations infra we have omitted sending in the printout of the latter.
The following is a selection of extracted IGI records showing the elements in late 16th C England (extraneous fields have been deleted in the interest of conserving space):
According to the June 2004 LOAR (R-Atenveldt, Rebekah Anna Leah Wynterbourne), "At the end of period, double given names are
occasionally found in England[.]" This makes the construction of the name plausible for the desired time period.
Kenneth Haldane - New name and device
Vert, a chevron embattled ermine and in chief two falcons striking respectant argent.Kenneth is an English masculine given name. This spelling has been ruled period by express Laurel precedent; see, e.g., the April 2011 registration of Kenneth Makdonenalde (via the Middle.)
Haldane is a Scottish surname. Black (s.n. Haldane) attests a Roger Haldane from 1255.
Margery Garret - New Device Change (see Returns for badge)
Per fess embattled sable mullety argent and gules, in base a bee argent marked sable.Her previous registration of Per fess embattled sable mullety argent and gules, in base a crescent argent is to be released.
The per fess embattled line and the irregular arrangement of the mullets in chief are not ideal, but they appear identical to those in her currently registered device.
Maria Clara de Madrid - New name and device
Sable, a Latin cross flory and in chief three cinquefoils Or.Originally submitted in all capital letters with no changes permitted, the submitter has now provided substitute forms showing the name as presented here in order to match the documentation.
Maria is a Spanish feminine given name. The article "Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century" by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith) at http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/isabella/WomensGivenAlpha.html cites 72 instances of this unaccented form.
Clara is a Spanish feminine given name. The article "Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century" (supra) cites a single instance of the name.
de Madrid is a Spanish locative byname. The article "Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century" by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith) at
cites this spelling as being found in the 1477-1504 account books of Isabel la Catolica.
Ragnarr inn hávi - New Device
Vert, a wolf rampant argent within a serpent involved Or and a bordure embattled argent.While the submitter's mailing address is in Trimaris (through which his name was registered in January 2012), he is currently stationed in the Barony of the Far West. I am told this permits us to process this submission through the West.
Sedania de Corwyn - New Badge Change
Vert, a thistle Or and a bordure ermine.Her current badge Vert, on a fess between three thistles Or, a griffin statant sable is to be released.
(While it was not specified on the form, the submitter confirmed by phone conversation that the badge she
wants changed and released is her original device, retained as a badge in Feb. 2011 when she changed to
her current device. That is her only registered badge.)
Valeria Eberhardt - New Name Change
While submitted under the currently-registered name of Valeria Tertia Alexandrina, which is marked to be released, this same individual submitted a name change to Sophie Hebenstreit on our Jan. 2012 LOI. That change was considered at this month's Pelican meeting but has not yet been published to make it official. In subsequent correspondence the submitter stated:
The administrative formalities associated with this are left for the Laurel office to determine.
Both myself and many of my friends know me only as Valeria and the "Sophie" was not sticking well. :)
I would prefer that the Sophie Hebenstreit name be withdrawn, if that is still possible.
The submitter's documentation comes from two web sites: "Appendix A - Identifying German Names" at http://maxkade.iupui.edu/nameword/apend-a.html (misspelled on the submission form) and "Eberhardt, Evert Surname" at http://www.genealogywise.com/group/evertsurname?xg_source=activity. Neither of these provides useful dated examples, and contrary to the assertion on the submission form the former does not contain Valeria, but rather Valerie.
Valeria is technically still the submitter's registered SCA given name as of the date of this submission. It is also a period Italian feminine given name: The Feb. 2011 registration of Valeria Serena Ongaro (via Trimaris) states that "Commenters could find . . . the given names in c. 1500 Pisa."
Eberhardt is a constructed variant spelling of the German surname Eberhart. Brechenmacher (s.n. Eberhar(d)t) attests a Heinrich Eberhart from 1330. -hardt is a modern variant spelling of -hart which had already appeared in late period. E.g., Brechenmacher (s.n. Deinhart) attests the spellings Deynhart from 1453 and Deinhardt from 1586; (s.n. Bo(h)nhar(d)t) seems to identify the 1578 spelling Banhart with the 1580 spelling Bainhardt; (s.n. Funkhart) attests a Philipp Funkhardt from 1578; and (s.n. Gernhard(t)) attests Albert Gernhart 1469, Hieronymus Gernhardt 1520, and Barthol. Gernhardt 1525. Based on these examples it seems plausible that the attested Eberhart from 1330 could have been spelled Eberhardt in the 1500s.
According to the registration of Damiano Faust (Sept. 2004 LOAR, A-Meridies) the combination of an Italian
given name with a German byname is a step from period practice. Absent any other problem with the name, that
should make this submission registerable.
William atte Walter de Liverpoole - Device resubmission to kingdom (Dec. 2010)
Argent, a cross gules surmounted by a cormorant rising, a chief embattled sable.His first attempt (Aug. 2010) lacked the chief and was returned for conflict with the cross of St. George as well as artistic issues; the bird was a highly stylized rendition resembling the logo of the modern Liverpool Football Club. The second attempt (Dec. 2010) added the chief to avoid the conflict, but did not address the artistic issues. This is the third attempt. We might prefer that the bird extend farther off the cross, but feel it is adequately recognizable as currently drawn.
The submitter originally wanted the bird blazoned as a liverbird for the association with his locative, but we
found no indication of that term being used in any spelling before 1681.
ITEMS RETURNED FOR FURTHER WORK
Irena Ducas - New name and device
Per chevron argent and azure, six gouttes in chevron gules and two rabbits rampant addorsed, each maintaining a needle argent.The submitter's documentation, which consists of a printout of a family tree from A Short History of Byzantium by John Julius Norwich, shows the submitted name as differing only in a single letter from that of the founding mother of a significant royal dynasty in the Byzantine Empire. Senior heralds at the meeting (including Matins' boss) felt that this was too close to a major historical figure to be registered.
Further, the name is not adequately supported in the form submitted. All available evidence shows that the Byzantines used the spellings Eirene or Irene; we have found no instances of Irena. The byname appears to have been normalized by the author in the submitter's documentation, as historical records show the family name as Doukas when used by men, but taking the modified form Doukaina when used by women. Absent the issue of conflict/presumption, we would have modified the name to Irene Doukaina as the nearest spelling supported by the historical record of Byzantine names. The submitter may wish to study the articles at http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names.html#byzantium and/or the database of the Prosopography of the Byzantine World at http://db.pbw.kcl.ac.uk/jsp/index.jsp in considering a resubmission.
When resubmitting, please do NOT put the "Society Name" in all capital letters. We need to know the details, including capitalization or not, of how you want the name registered and recorded. We are not aware of any culture whose written language distinguishes capital and lower-case letters in which names are found in all capitals.
The device cannot be sent on without a name, so it must also be returned. In addition, the
drawing is at best marginal in style. The size of the rabbits forces the per chevron
line up to where the bottom ends barely reach the fess line (indicated by the tick marks on
the edges of the shield.) This makes the upper portion of the field much less than
half, rather than the even division which is ideal. The gouttes are not quite in chevron,
as the center goutte on each diagonal is slightly elevated. This approaches the arrangement
in arch, which has long been banned. The interlacing of the rabbits' ears is unusual,
but was felt to be an insignificant artistic detail. The submitter is advised to take the
opportunity to address these issues in resubmitting.
Leo Diogenes - New device change
Argent, a wolf sejant contourny regardant gules maintaining a "lantern" Or and on a chief embattled sable three bezants.This must be returned for lack of an artist's signature. There must be a signature in that space even if the submitter is also the artist. The submitter was sent an e-mail noting this in ample time to provide replacement forms, but has not done so.
In resubmitting, please note that the sense of the meeting was that the charge here was difficult
to recognize as a wolf. The shape of the head struck many as reptilian, an impression magnified
by the perceived resemblance of the line detailing along the back to scales. It would also help
to straighten the back instead of the hunched posture used here. We also suggest the use of a
standard heraldic depiction of a lantern. Even though maintained charges do not count for
difference, they must still be recognizable charges, and the rendition used here is not clearly
Margery Garret - New badge
Argent, a pale vert between two pawprints sable, the pale surmounted by a tower Or charged with a heart gules.This must be returned for each of several reasons:
While we are reluctant to suggest specific remedies without knowing more about the submitter's
priorities, the design must be simplified and the issues with the overall charge must
be addressed before this has any chance of being registered. The presence of the heart on the
tower precludes simply shrinking the tower to fit entirely on the pale, since that would exceed
the layer limit: The heart would be two layers (tower and pale) removed from the field, which is
Main Herald's Web Page