Minutes of the November, 2011 Heralds Meeting

Click here for a Printer Friendly (Black and White) version
Minutes Page
Main Herald's Web Page


The meeting was held on Sunday, 20 November 2011, in Stockton. The meeting started at 1:30PM and ended circa 3:30PM. In attendance at this meeting were: Owen ap Morgan, Matins; Moira O’Connor, Vesper; Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym, Brachet; Eilis O’Byrne, Baldric; Aasa Thorvaldsdottir, Green Cloak; Astrið of Swansvale, Latimer; Maxen Dawel ap Morgan, Exchequer; Caoilinn Rose Maddox, Sable Swan; Ana Maria de Acosta, Deputy Exchequer; Vincenzo Saracini, Glora Fjord; and Frederick of Holland, PaL.

There is no meeting in December 2011.
The usual Twelfth Night meeting will be held at the hotel at 10AM Sunday morning, January 8, 2012. All senior and branch heralds are expected to attend save those excused by distance and/or prior arrangement. Scheduling of further 2012 meetings will take place at 12th Night after the calendar is better known.

Time change: As my father has started holding Quaker meetings for worship in our home some Sunday mornings, heraldry meetings will now start at 1:00 PM in order to avoid conflict. Please do not arrive before 12:30 PM.

PLEASE NOTE: Unless and until specified otherwise, the regular meetings are now taking place in Stockton at the home of Owen ap Morgan, Matins Herald:

2023 Oak Branch Dr
Stockton, CA 95205
(209) 463-6861 (message)
Contact Owen for directions. The drive is approximately an hour from Sacramento and an hour and a half from either Berkeley or San Jose via Livermore.

Walk-in submissions are generally permitted but not encouraged, as they do not allow for advance review and prep work.. If you are bringing the paperwork for a submission to a meeting, please plan to arrive by 12:30 PM to allow the file to be pulled or set up. For meetings not held in Stockton (Collegium, 12th Night, etc.) sufficient advance notice to pull any existing file will be required.

We are conducting some preliminary name research through the West Kingdom heraldic consultation mailing list wkheralds_consults@yahoogroups.com . This list is open to all those interested in West Kingdom book heraldry: both names and devices, and either to contribute or to ask questions. To join the list, please subscribe through Yahoo or at wkheralds_consults-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. If you subscribe by e-mail, you can complete the process by replying to the confirmation e-mail; it is not necessary to log in to Yahoo. Please note that initial posts are moderated and thus may not appear on the list immediately.



Moira, Vesper- As Vesper is currently very sick and unable to speak much, there was not much to report.

Aasa, Green Cloak – Enjoying on-the-job-training and would love any assistance, especially at 12th Night.

Ketiley, Banner- [By Eilis] Banner is dealing with missing court reports - one from Crown last summer, and GWW Western Court. Banner is also very excited about the training next Saturday.

Eilis, Baldric- Next Saturday (November 26) is Court Heraldry Training, email invitations have been sent out.

Owen, Matins – Since approval was received last month to obtain a new printer, Matins has obtained a Brother All-in-one, and turned in the receipts. Minutes have been running behind because of computer issues, but they are almost caught up and will be sent to Hirsch tonight. The October packets scans are now in Oscar, and the paper packets will be sent with this months packet. Note in the latest LOAR Cover letter - Byname Presumptions; Latest Names Resources consisting of Tangwystyl; Discussing the definition of sustained charges.

Astrið, Latimer- Held multiple consults through Coronet, with good attendance. Next Consultation table will be at March Crown. Tried to comment on the estoiles vs. mullets discussion, but Bruce had already posted with great references. Looks like it will be decided that there is no point of difference between estoiles and mullets.

East Bay Brachet is currently working on November letters.

Gwenhwyfaer, Brachet- Meetings are temporarily being moved to Caoilinn's house for about two months. We are working on the October letters.

Hirsch, Golem- No report.

Gillian, Seawolf – No report.

Caoilinn, Sable Swan – Court reports for Cynagua are done, except for the missing GWW courts. Still looking for a deputy and eventual successor, but will happily extend with permission. Have scheduled a night next week to review ceremonies for error and updates. Also found that the Sable Swan email is going to Zaid, it is because of the migration to the Kingdom Server and have sent emails to get it fixed.

Bianca, Stellanordica – [By e-mail] All going well, I have been Their Highnesses Herald throughout their reign. Consultations have slowed, I am working on a plan to get people more excited as soon as their Majesties visit is completed. I have local heralds reports each quarter and consultation news each month.

Maxen, exchequer- Deputy training continues.



The next regularly scheduled appearance of the consultation table will be in March. Special appearances at local events may be possible by prior arrangement with Latimer; we have actually been getting better turnout at some of these than at Crowns and Coronets.

The 2012 Known World Heralds and Scribes Symposium will be held in the East Kingdom (Rhode Island) over the weekend of June 22-24. Yes, this is the same weekend as West Kingdom June Crown Tourney. Sigh. Those desiring a more convenient time and location may desire to investigate the logistics of hosting one. It hasn't been held in the West in some time.


VOICE HERALDRY: Greencloak will continue to hold voice heraldry training sessions at the beginning of events to encourage involvement at the event.

MAILING LIST: The West Kingdom College of Heralds has a mailing list for internal communication. Any herald is welcome to join by request. To join the list, please subscribe at wkheralds-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.

ELECTRONIC RESOURCES: Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at http://www.sca.org/heraldry, including the Laurel home page, the on-line Armorial and Ordinary (with search capabilities) and The Academy of St. Gabriel (an onomastic and heraldic consultation service). The West Kingdom Heraldry site and the West Kingdom Awards List can be accessed through the West Kingdom site, http://www.westkingdom.org. Heraldic queries may also be addressed to Moira at herald@westkingdom.org -- answers may take a few days.

West Kingdom College of Heralds Minutes are published on the web. They may be read at or printed from the heralds' website at http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Minutes.htm. There is a colored version and a printer-friendly black and white version available.

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. The meetings are held most Mondays at 7:00 pm at 4317 Alderwood Way, Sacramento, CA 95864. Call Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym (Brachet) for more information, (916) 323-4268 or email her, .

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. Please consider attending – you do not have to be able to attend every week. They are a fast way to learn how the Rules of Submission work and how to research armory. These meetings have changed location and are now in Walnut Creek on Wednesday nights. If you are interested, contact the Latimer Herald, Astrið of Swansvale (Gretchen Lebednik) at .


The cover letters, acceptances and returns for the past can be found at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/. If you are interested in responding to some of the calls for commentary put out by the Laurel Queen of Arms, please be sure to visit the site.


Cover letter

From Pelican: A Proposal for Byname Presumption

This month we were asked to consider whether the name Isaac Masters could be registered. The name Masters is not directly a claim to be a master; names formed with the possessive -s are generally patronymic in origin (making this equivalent to Masterson). This name is pended for further discussion of the issue of what sorts of bynames should be considered presumptuous. Current precedent is mixed and somewhat contradictory; some names that are derived from (but not identical to) a title have been allowed, while others have been returned. However, having looked over most of the relevant precedents, we believe we see a pattern for what has been considered allowable and what presumptuous. Therefore, we would like discussion on the following proposal.

We allow the registration of given names that are identical to titles when those names are found in period and they are used in a context that is not a claim to rank. This seems to match the rulings on bynames. Bynames of this sort generally are allowed when they are attested as period bynames, but not when they are constructed (following patterns of types of bynames). They are allowed when they are used by people who have no particular claim to rank, but not when they are used only by those who have a rank (so that Fitzroy, which becomes broadly used as a surname, does not imply that you yourself are the son of any king; likewise, Visconti does not imply that you are close kin to a viscount). Finally, they are allowed when the name itself is not a direct claim to rank. So Visconte would not be allowed, but Visconti would, and Master would not be allowed, but Masters would.

A byname that met all three of these criteria (is not a direct claim to rank, is used by people who have no particular rank, and are attested to period) would be registerable, while a byname that does not would generally be considered to create the appearance of a presumption of rank.

The combination of bynames would be considered in the same way: adding a locative element after a byname like Visconti would not be presumptuous, as Visconti da Firenze is not a claim to be the viscount of Florence (that'd be Visconte di Firenze).

From Pelican: Some Name Resources (a series)

As I talked about Gaelic and Anglicized Irish names back in October of 2010, we're ready to move on to Welsh. The most important thing you need to know about what we know about Welsh names in the SCA is a name: Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn. Tangwystyl has been doing research on Welsh names since the 1980s. And if you go to the section on Welsh, Breton, and Brythonic Names at the Academy of Saint Gabriel Library ( http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/pceltic.shtml), you'll discover that she's written more articles about the names of this area than every other writer combined. A few of her print articles are now considered outdated (even by her; especially by her), such as the articles appearing in A Welsh Miscellany, CA 66. It was published nearly 20 years ago, and should not be used as documentation. The reason is simple: it combines legendary early names with late period names, all written using 20th century spellings. This matters for two reasons. While we'll register an early Welsh name, we will not register it in spellings found only in the 20th century. In fact, we will not register names in spellings that aren't found in period from any language. Second, we require names to follow certain rules for temporal compatibility, so we need to know whether a name is used in the 6th century or the 16th century.

So, what do you need to know about Welsh, other than those articles? First, the biggest issue about Welsh is the issue of orthography, how names are written down. Modern Welsh spelling (keep thinking orthography, for us technical folks) is very different from medieval Welsh spellings; for most of the Middle Ages, dd and rh do not appear. Their sounds are represented in writing by d and r. By the sixteenth century, something like modern Welsh spelling is beginning to appear. So, names that appear today as Dafydd and Rhys appear in Welsh contexts during the Middle Ages as David (or Davyd) and Res (or Rys/Ris). It's only very close to 1600 that spellings like the modern ones become at all common. One good source to look at medieval Welsh spellings is "Welsh Prose: 1350-1425" (http://www.rhyddiaithganoloesol.caerdydd.ac.uk/en/). So if you want a name that looks like modern Welsh names, you need to aim for late period. Authenticity requests for the 13th century will create names that look very different than modern Welsh. Names that had fallen out of use by the 16th century (even if they were revived in modern times) often simply cannot be registered in their modern spellings.

The situation of reconstructing spellings is made more complicated by the fact that some of our best records for Welsh names are created by English writers, who often are unfamiliar with the Welsh language and so wind up mangling Welsh names. Others are Latinized, and so use Latin spelling conventions to render names. Thus, sometimes the documentary forms we have for names do not reflect the Welsh of that time. Of course, we'll register the Anglicized or Latinized forms of Welsh names, even in combination or combined with Welsh spellings (though we require each given name or byname to match internally). If you want to create Welsh forms of names only documented in English or Latinized forms, we can accept evidence of Welsh spellings of words with similar sounds from the same time period to reconstruct Welsh spellings from that time. But this is tricky and probably should only be done with the help of an expert.

From Wreath: Revisiting Maintained and Sustained Charges Yet Again

This month we were asked to consider a device for Sarah de Warenne in which one of the primary charges, a lion, is holding another charge, in this case a halberd. Under current precedent, whether a charge is a sustained or maintained charge is determined by a comparison of the longest dimensions of the charge and the charge touching it.

In this specific case, as the longest dimension of the halberd is equal to the longest dimension of the lion holding it, the halberd is a sustained charge and thus there are three types of charges in the primary charge group: a violation of section VIII.1.a of the Rules for submission, Armorial Simplicity, which requires that "three or more types of charges should not be used in the same group."

However, the visual weight of the halberd in this device strongly suggests that it should be considered a maintained charge. Precedent holds that "Our practice has been to ignore maintained charges when defining a device as simple armory for the purposes of this rule and RfS X.2. [Elise l'Éstrange, 05-2005, A-An Tir]" If the halberd is a maintained charge, then the device does not violate the armorial simplicity rule, and may be registered.

We therefore invite commenters to discuss modifying our standards on defining maintained and sustained charges, taking into account the following points:

West Kingdom acceptances

Robert Godwin of Markmoor. Reblazon of device. Gules, a gauntlet fesswise maintaining a book sable fimbriated and a cross argent.

Blazoned when registered in June 1976 as Gules, a gauntlet sable, fimbriated argent, holding a cross argent and a book sable, fimbriated argent, we are clarifying the orientation of the gauntlet.

West Kingdom returns


In Service,
Owen ap Morgan
Matins Herald

SUBMISSONS – 20 November, XLVI (2011)


Arianwen ferch Morgan - Appeal of name return by Laurel (Sept. 2008)

The identical name was returned in the Sept. 2008 LOAR (R-West) for the sole stated reason that "The spelling Arianwen was ruled unregisterable on the April 2007 LOAR". That Apr. 2007 precedent was overturned in the Sept. 2011 LOAR (A-Meridies, Aranwen Ridhelic), where it stated that

Aranwen Ridhelic is a spelling appropriate for around 1200, while Arianwen Riedhelig is a spelling appropriate for the later 16th century. In fact, it is likely that both names are suitable for much of the medieval Welsh period, according to Harpy.
As the only stated obstacle to registration of this name has been removed, the earlier decision should be reversed and the name registered.

This appeal has the unanimous and enthusiastic support of the West Kingdom College of Heralds.

Catriona Morgan - New name (see Returns for device)

Catriona is a constructed variant spelling of the Gaelic feminine given name Caitríona. While the submitter's documentation (from www.babynameworld.com) is not helpful, the article "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Caitríona" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien) at http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Caiterina.shtml shows the spellings Catariona and Caiterfhina for a single individual in 1490 and the spellings Caitríona and Caiterfhina for another individual in 1493. The submitted spelling falls directly between these two attested variants of Caiterfhina and should thus be plausible for the same time period.

Morgan is found as a surname in several cultures. The submitter documented it from Welsh, which is less useful in the context of the Gaelic given name, but Black (s.n. Morgan) attests that "John Morgane was burgess of Glasgow, 1419" and Reaney & Wilson (s.n. Morgan) attest a John Morgan from 1214. This should bring the submitted spelling close enough to make it compatible with the given name.

Cormac Ciúin - Correction to LOAR entry (July 2011)
Per pale sable and argent all estencely counterchanged, a caltrap within a bordure per pale argent and sable.


Having been published in a LOAR, the mistake needs to be corrected in a LOAR. Hence this request.

Eibhilín O'Mulclahy - Device resubmission to kingdom (Aug. 2011)
Per fess azure and vert, on a fess argent a brown bear statant proper, in chief three estoiles argent.

The previous attempt of Per fess azure and vert, on a fess argent a brown bear statant proper was returned in Aug. 2011 for conflict with the registered non-SCA badge of Lesotho, Per fess azure and vert, on a fess argent a conical hat sable. The submitter has added the estoiles to clear this.

Saionji no Hana - New device change
Argent, three fans in pall inverted conjoined at the handles azure each charged with a demi-roundel flat to center argent.

The blazon is taken from the registered blazon of her fieldless badge containing the same arrangement of charges. Her previous device Per bend sable and gules, a swan rousant contourny and in chief three fleurs-de-lys argent, being distinctly non-Japanese in nature, will be demoted to a badge.

Sveinn járnsaxa - New name change and device change
Azure, a drakkar, sail furled, and on a chief embattled Or a demi-sun gules.

His previous name Duncan McClay and device Argent, a horse's head couped gules, on a chief sable two increscents argent. are to be retained as an alternate name and a badge respectively.

The submitter requests authenticity for 12th century Norse language and/or culture.

Sveinn is a masculine Old Norse given name. Geirr Bassi (p.15) cites a single instance of this spelling.

járnsaxa is an Old Norse descriptive byname. Geirr Bassi (p.24) cites this spelling as meaning "iron-knife".

Waleric von Brederek - New name and device
Per saltire gules and sable, a saltire raguly between in pale an eagle and an eagle contourny and in fess two Latin crosses formy fitched at the foot argent.

Submitted as Waleric Von Brederek, the erroneous capitalization of the preposition has been corrected.

Waleric is a Germanic masculine given name. The submitter documents a "Saint Walric (also known as . . . Waleric . . . (622)" from the web site http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/2277916 and the spelling Walerich from http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heiligenlegenden.de/monate/april/01/walerich/home.html&langpair=de|en&hl=de&prev=%2Flanguage_tools. In addition Morlet v.I (sub Walha-, s.n. Walhericus) shows a Latinized "Walericus : Pol. Reims XXII. 33."

Saint Walericus appears to be recognized by the Catholic Church according to http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=2026 and the spelling St. Waleric persists today in the name of "St Waleric Day Hospital" in Winchester (http://www.ihampshire.co.uk/profile/294299/Winchester/St-Waleric-Day-Hospital/). As such, we hope the saints' names allowance makes this spelling available through the SCA period.

von appears to be important to the submitter, as he submitted three pages of wikipedia documentation for it.

Brederek is hypothesized to be a period spelling variant of a German placename. Bahlow contains an entry "Brederek(e): pl. n. Bredereiche near Templin." and Brechenmacher (s.n. Bredereich(e)) attests a Merten Bredereke from 1461. While this does not directly support the submitted von Brederek in period, we hope it comes close enough. We are reluctant to delete the von for fear the submitter might regard that as an unauthorized major change.

The device form was printed too small. Please note that the prescribed size for the shield is printed on the form and can be checked easily. Fortunately this could be corrected by photoenlarging and we had willing colorists at the meeting.

The crosses ought to be somewhat larger, both to fill the space better and to balance the size of the eagles in the other sections of the field.


Catriona Morgan - New device

Argent, a Celtic knotwork heart and a bordure purpure.

Celtic knotwork has been unregisterable for decades. The "Golden Rivers heralds" listed as consulting on this should know that.

Minutes Page
Main Herald's Web Page