Minutes of the February, 2011 Heralds Meeting

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The meeting was held on Sunday, 6 February 2011, in Stockton. The meeting started at about 12:30PM and ended around 2:30PM. In attendance at this meeting were: Owen ap Morgan, Matins; Moira O’Connor, Vesper; Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym, Brachet; Eilis O’Boirne, Baldric; Anne FitzRichard, Greencloak; Astri of Swansvale, Latimer; Maxen Dawel ap Morgan, Exchequer; Frederick of Holland, PaL; Volker von dem Walde, PEaL; Michael, Vagabond; Ana Maria de Acosta; and Vincenzo Saracini.

Future 2011 meetings are currently scheduled for March 13, April 3 (rescheduled to avoid the Kingdom officers' meeting on the 17th), May 8, June 5, July 10, August 21, September 11, October 23, and November 20. We do not presently intend to hold a meeting in December 2011. Meetings start at noon, unless otherwise announced.

PLEASE NOTE: Unless and until specified otherwise, the regular meetings are now taking place in Stockton at the home of Owen ap Morgan, Matins Herald:

2023 Oak Branch Dr
Stockton, CA 95205
(209) 463-6861 (message)
Contact Owen for directions. The drive is approximately an hour from Sacramento and an hour and a half from either Berkeley or San Jose via Livermore.

Walk-in submissions are generally permitted but not encouraged, as they do not allow for advance review and prep work.. If you are bringing the paperwork for a submission to a meeting, please plan to arrive by 11:00 am to allow the file to be pulled or set up. For meetings not held in Stockton (Collegium, 12th Night, etc.) sufficient advance notice to pull any existing file will be required.

We are conducting some preliminary name research through the West Kingdom heraldic consultation mailing list wkheralds_consults@yahoogroups.com . This list is open to all those interested in West Kingdom book heraldry: both names and devices, and either to contribute or to ask questions. To join the list, please subscribe through Yahoo or at wkheralds_consults-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. If you subscribe by e-mail, you can complete the process by replying to the confirmation e-mail; it is not necessary to log in to Yahoo. Please note that initial posts are moderated and thus may not appear on the list immediately.



Moira, Vesper- On course. Known World Heraldic Symposium in North Carolina, just outside Raleigh-Durham in June (ergo, heat and high humidity).

Anne, Green Cloak – Will be at White Shield and will do training for both field heraldry and working with lists. Voice training also will be done at March Crown.

Ketiley, Banner- Courts are being conducted successfully. Na'arah continuing with education of baronial heralds.

Eilis, Baldric- Going to try training at local collegia this year. Arrangements are being made to provide a training session in Oertha. Potentially will also be training at Southern Shores Newcomers event and Golden Rivers Collegium. Working short forms for certain ceremonies.

Owen, Matins – LoAR production has slowed. Nothing new about College of Arms rules revision project.

Astri, Latimer- Consultation Table first event in 2011 is March Crown.

Gwenhwyfaer, Brachet- Have been having meetings, catching up from the heavy load in November.

Hirsch, Golem- Fixing errors in the Ceremony Book as fast as they are reported. If you find one, please report it to Golem.

Gillian, Seawolf – No report.

Zaid, Sable Swan – No report.

Clare, Stellanordica – Looking for a successor.

Maxen, exchequer- We have money. Exchequer is training a successor - Yay!


This year's Known World Heraldic and Scribal Symposium will be held in Atlantia, in High Point, North Carolina on the weekend of June 24-26, 2011. The symposium is a chance to meet top heralds from throughout the Known World and take classes at various levels. If you care to attend, it's not too soon to be making arrangements.


VOICE HERALDRY: Greencloak will continue to hold voice heraldry training sessions at the beginning of events to encourage involvement at the event.

MAILING LIST: The West Kingdom College of Heralds has a mailing list for internal communication. Any herald is welcome to join by request. To join the list, please subscribe at wkheralds-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.

ELECTRONIC RESOURCES: Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at http://www.sca.org/heraldry, including the Laurel home page, the on-line Armorial and Ordinary (with search capabilities) and The Academy of St. Gabriel (an onomastic and heraldic consultation service). The West Kingdom Heraldry site and the West Kingdom Awards List can be accessed through the West Kingdom site, http://www.westkingdom.org. Heraldic queries may also be addressed to Moira at herald@westkingdom.org -- answers may take a few days.

West Kingdom College of Heralds Minutes are published on the web. They may be read at or printed from the heralds' website at http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Minutes.htm. There is a colored version and a printer-friendly black and white version available.

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. The meetings are held most Mondays at 7:00 pm at 4317 Alderwood Way, Sacramento, CA 95864. Call Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym (Brachet) for more information, (916) 323-4268 or email her, .

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. Please consider attending – you do not have to be able to attend every week. They are a fast way to learn how the Rules of Submission work and how to research armory. These meetings have changed location and are now in Walnut Creek on Wednesday nights. If you are interested, contact the Latimer Herald, Astri of Swansvale (Gretchen Lebednik) at .


The cover letters, acceptances and returns for the past can be found at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/. If you are interested in responding to some of the calls for commentary put out by the Laurel Queen of Arms, please be sure to visit the site.


Cover letter

From Laurel: LoAR RSS Feed

For those who use some form of RSS reader and want to be notified when the LoARs are placed on the archive on the Laurel web site, an RSS feed has been created. It is located at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/loar.rss

Note that the archive contains the same documents, but is updated after the LoARs are sent to the mailing lists on scadian.net

From Laurel: Magen David Adom

In May of 2010, Laurel protected the motif A single gules Star of David on any argent background or in any way that could be displayed on an argent background (such as a fieldless badge), saying "By treaty, the symbol of the Magen David Adom has the same protection as the symbols of the Red Cross, of the Red Crescent, and of the Red Crystal."

Normally, we only protect the exact form of a badge or logo we consider important non-SCA armory (in this case, Argent, a Star of David gules). One exception to this principle is the motifs protected by treaty as the symbols of International Committee of the Red Cross. We protect these motifs more broadly, restricting the use of any design with the motif A single gules <charge> (cross couped, decrescent, mascle) on any argent background or in any way that could be displayed on an argent background. The similar restriction of a gules Star of David was based on the understanding that it too was protected by these treaties. Daniel de Lincoln presented clear evidence that the symbol of the Magen David Adom is not so protected, and that in fact, the International Committee of the Red Cross has explicitly declined to give it that protection. Therefore, we have no justification for giving the gules Star of David the same protection as the motifs protected by the International Committee of the Red Cross.

The badge of the Magen David Adom is important enough to protect and will continue to be protected; it is listed under the LAUREL section of this LoAR.

From Laurel: Non Scriptum, Non Est

In the last six months, the Laurel office has received submissions with an unacceptable problem twice, from two different kingdoms. In each, the Letter of Intent reported that kingdom had changed a name submission, but the submissions form included no sign of that originally submitted form. We are not sure whether the kingdom submissions heralds prepared new forms because of the change, the submitter was talked out of an original submission and filled out paperwork with the name recommended by the kingdom consultation, or something completely different. This cannot be tolerated. We are required by long policy to only consider the information the submitter includes in writing. So, please, don't prepare new name forms. Please, do make sure that all relevant information about modifications and the submitter's intent is included on the submissions form itself. Otherwise, we're going to have to start making administrative returns.

Armory is a different matter. Here, new forms may be prepared, with the submitter's approval of the artwork. This is because a piece of armory cannot be modified on the old forms. Be sure that all information the submitter provided, including their attempted blazon, is transferred to the new form. The fact that the provided emblazon is a redraw with submitter approval should be mentioned on the LoI.

From Pelican: Transliteration and Old Norse

In June of 2010, we asked for commentary on the question of what forms of Old Norse names we should register. Commentary was interesting and insightful; my thanks to all who weighed in. At the moment, we allow the registration of documentary forms found in the Latin alphabet as well as "standardized" Old Norse, a 19th century scholarly construction that attempts to clearly indicate the pronunciation of Old Norse. We asked whether we should add two additional forms: a non-scholarly version of standardized Old Norse that includes some but not all of the special characters and some transcriptions of runic forms that were not recorded in the Latin alphabet.

Commentary regarding the first point was resoundingly positive. We will allow the registration of Old Norse names in simplified versions of standardized Old Norse; for example, a simplification that uses o for both o and {o,} or one that uses th for both and . Therefore spellings like Bjorn will be registerable as Old Norse spellings. This does not allow the use of Anglicized forms, such Erik for Eirkr.

On the second point, things are a bit more complicated. While we encourage submitters to use runic forms of their names, we cannot register forms written in runes, as that would make it essentially impossible to conflict check. Even direct one to one transcriptions of runes are problematic, as the same rune is often used to represent multiple sounds. Therefore, we require a transliteration that represents the pronunciation of the name, just as we require transliterations of Arabic to include vowels, even though the words as written in medieval Arabic generally only record the consonants.

On the other hand, runic spellings, such as those recorded in Lena Peterson's Nordiskt runnamslexikon, preserve pronunciations that were never recorded in the Latin alphabet. This is especially true for forms from Old East Norse, which is poorly represented in Latin alphabet documents compared to Old West Norse. Therefore, we will register forms of runic names that have been transcribed following a standard scholarly system, such as the header forms in Lena Peterson's work. We will not, however, accept "invented" transcriptions based on a submitter's proposal of how to transcribe runic names.

From Pelican: Talking about (my) Documentation

This ongoing series about sources and problems in documentation is getting hijacked this month to discuss how we talk about documentation. The term documented is used for two independent ideas. First, it refers to the broad idea of demonstrating that the submitter may use a particular element: one may, for example, speak of documenting that Lilie is a submitter's legal name. Second, it refers to the idea that a particular element is dated to before 1650. In the draft rules, we are trying to separate these two ideas by using documented for the broad idea and attested to refer to the idea that an element is found in period. We encourage you to do the same.

Things get more complicated as we move from clearly attested elements to elements that are created in various ways. Again, we have vocabulary to discuss that creation, depending on how closely the submitted element matches attested forms. One common pattern for submissions is to create a spelling variant of an attested name by using either multiple attested forms or information about spelling variation in other attested forms. For example, in this month's acceptances, we registered Kirsten on the basis of Kristen and Kyrstin, two forms of the same name attested in the 15th century according to Lind. We call this creation of spelling variants interpolation.

Finally, we come to constructed names. We say that a name is constructed if it takes elements that are attested to period, but puts them together to make a name that is not attested. These include bynames that are constructed from attested given names (so taking an attested Bjartmarr to construct a patronymic byname Bjartmarsson), while others take two elements (from a dithemic name like lfmund - made up of lf- and -mund or a placename like Sheepford, made up of Sheep- and -ford).

From Wreath: Tudor Roses

A submission pended from the May 2010 LoAR asked whether or not we wanted to reduce the protection on Tudor roses. The protection, as it has been stated until now, is as follows:

The combination of a rose argent and a rose gules, whether as a double rose (on a rose, a rose) or in some other manner which creates a half-white, half-red rose. [Glossary of Terms, http://heraldry.sca.org/coagloss.html]

Research done as part of this submission indicates that half-white, half-red roses were also used by many other families. The badge of the Tudors seems to appear in only six forms, all of which were used by other families:

We are, therefore, removing the restriction on using half-white and half-red roses as part of a larger armorial design. We are registering those six badges to the Tudors, as they are important period badges, but we will no longer restrict their use entirely.

Note that this does not remove the issue of presumption. The combination of the surname Tudor with armory which incorporates half white and half red roses may be considered to violate our rules on presumption and pretense, but we will not decide that issue at this time.

From Wreath: Chevrons, Per Chevron, and Their Inversions

For many years now, depictions of chevrons and the per chevron line of division have gotten progressively more problematic in our perceptions as we examine period depictions of chevrons. We frequently see submissions for per chevron which are the bottom quarter of a per saltire field, rising no further than the center of the field. This issue is exacerbated by the fact that the bend/saltire tickmarks on the field are being mis-interpreted as being guidelines for drawing per chevron fields.

We would like to discuss putting limitations on the depiction of chevrons and per chevron fields in armory. The following proposal is intended to serve as a starting point for the conversation. If we adopt any revised standard, we do not expect to adopt it as written here:

In period, per chevron divisions and chevrons frequently extend nearly to the top of the field. There should not be room for a primary or large secondary charges above the tip of a chevron or per chevron field. Sumbmissions including these items will not be registered. This also holds for large charges below the tip of chevrons inverted and per chevron inverted. If the charge is alone on that side of division, it probably falls under this rule. Exceptions will be made for narrow charges placed fesswise in chief.

The chevron, chevron inverted, per chevron line of division, or per chevron inverted line of division, measured from the point to the furthest extent against the field, should be more than one third of the height of the field. It may slide up or (less frequently) down on the field in period, to make room for any surrounding charges.

From Wreath: Color-Correcting Scans

This month, we considered submissions where the color 'scan' on OSCAR had obviously been colorized: both of the paper forms we received had been colored with markers and the scanned image had smooth, uniform colors bordered by a fringe of anti-aliasing from a paint program fill. We remind submissions heralds that computer-correcting the color scan has been cause for return since March 2009. Fortunately, all the submissions which exhibited this issue were returned for other reasons, and we did not have to penalize submitters for the mistakes of their kingdom submissions herald. Please, for your submitter's sake, do not do this.

From Wreath: Emblazons and Crayons

We have repeatedly asked kingdom submissions heralds not to send submissions forms colored with crayon for many years, and we keep receiving them. Submissions colored with wax-based color such as crayon will be returned administratively starting with the May 2011 Laurel meetings, and the forms will be discarded. We are taking this step because the wax will melt and bond many pages together, which destroys the archives. While efforts will be made to get a new set of forms from Kingdom, please replace them before this step must be taken.

West Kingdom acceptances

Lleucu Bengam. Device. Purpure chap ploy, a vine fesswise argent and on a chief dovetailed sable a vine argent.

West Kingdom returns


In Service,
Owen ap Morgan
Matins Herald

SUBMISSONS – 9 January, XLV (2011)


Bran MacMurrough - New name and device

Or, a pavilion gules, in chief three grenades sable, flamed gules.

Submitted as Bran MacMurraugh, the surname appeared to be a rare modern spelling variant and the submitter provided no documentation. We have substituted the closest equivalent for which we could find documentation.

Bran is an Anglicized Irish masculine given name. "Names Found in Anglicized Irish Documents: Men's Names" by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada (Kathleen M. O'Brien) at http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnglicizedIrish/Masculine.shtml (s.n. Brian) cites Bran m'Donogh O Birne from 1600 and Bran m'Owen Birne from 1598.

MacMurrough is an Anglicized Irish patronymic byname. The same article "Names Found in Anglicized Irish Documents: Men's Names" (s.n. Morgh) cites a Murrough McDonnell O'Ferrall of Athey-donell from 1570/1 and Murrough buy of Ballyedane from 1570. The patronymic formation is standard.

The device alludes to the submitter's nickname (perpetuated in the online West Kingdom Awards List) of "Murphy 'Oops' Flambe".

Helga skjaldmr - Resub name to kingdom (Jan. 2011)

The original submission of Helga Hrossmear was returned in Jan. 2011 for failure to document the byname, which was said to mean "horse lady".

Helga is a Norse feminine given name cited in Geirr Bassi.

skjaldmr is a Norse feminine byname. Academy of Saint Gabriel report #2224 at http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2224+0 cites this spelling as meaning "shield maiden, female warrior" and says it "seems to be an appropriate nickname for [the Viking] period[.]"

Johann von der Mre - Resub name (Laurel Sept. 2005) and device (kingdom May 2005)
Per pale sable and argent, on a flame gules a sword inverted argent, a ford proper.

The original submission of John the Hessian was returned in the Sept. 2005 LOAR (R-West):

No documentation was presented and none found to show that the term Hessian is one that was used in period. Although Bahlow/Gentry, German Names s.n. Hess does say "Margrave Rudolf of Baden ''who was called a Hessian'' 1325", this is a translated term. The original German text makes it clear that the name derives from the given name of his father "Hesso". Because Hess is also a region of Germany, an ethnic byname does not seem unlikely. However, the term Hessian does not appear in English until the late 17th C, well after our gray area. We would change the name to John von Hesse, but this is an aural conflict with Jan van Hees registered April 1998.

This resubmission was originally Johann von der Mure, lacking the umlaut shown in the Codex Manesse citation (see below); as the submitter allowed no changes, it would have been returned. On being informed of this, the submitter provided new forms including the umlaut (but still allowing no changes, so we hope there are no other problems.)

Johann is a German masculine given name. "Late Period German Masculine Given Names" by Talan Gwynek (Brian M. Scott) at http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/germmasc.html cites this spelling in the section "Names from 15th Century Arnsburg".

von der Mre is a German surname. A digital facsimile of a page from the Codex Manesse at http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg848/0146 is labelled her heinrich von d' muere, which we believe is equivalent to the submitted form. (The small 'e' is directly above the 'u' in the manner once used instead of the umlaut.) The submitter also provided a web printout from Answers.com at http://www.answers.com/topic/heinrich-von-der-mure which cites a Heinrich von Der Mure who may be the same individual, but provides no source information for the spelling.

This is a redrawing of his original armory submission with the same blazon, which was returned at kingdom in May 2005 for using an unidentifiable flame. The drawing issue has been addressed.

Jonathan Chance - New name (see Returns for device)

Jonathan is a Biblical given name. Withycombe (s.n. Jonathan) says the Greek form was used in period and dates the spelling Jonathus to 1213.

Chance is an English surname. Reaney & Wilson (s.n. Chance) cite "Robert, Ralph Chance 1209 P (Ess), 1310 FFEss."

The submitter has requested authenticity for "10th Century Irish". I have no idea what he expects from that request, nor any concept even where to start trying to comply with it regarding this manifestly English name.

Lochlainn Bjarnarson - New name and resub(!!) device to kingdom (Artemisia)
Quarterly Or and sable, in bend two bears combattant gules.

This had been pended on discovery that the name submission was new and thus needed payment. As I have been assured by Vesper that she has cash in hand, it can now go forward.

Submitted as Loclan Bjornson, we have substituted the nearest given name for which we have found documentation and corrected the patronymic formation from the given name Bjǫrn cited in the submitter's documentation (taken from the Viking Answer Lady web site.)

Lochlainn is an Irish Gaelic masculine given name. The "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Lochlainn" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien) at http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Lochlainn.shtml gives this spelling as both the Middle and Early Modern Irish Gaelic nominative form and cites the spelling from dates ranging from 1023 to 1486, including three 12th C citations.

Bjarnarson is a Norse patronymic byname formed from the given name Bjǫrn. The latter is cited as a Norse masculine given name in Geirr Bassi, which also specifies the genitive form Bjarnar and resulting patronymic Bjarnarson.

The combination of Gaelic with Old Norse appears to be registerable with a step from period practice, judging by the registration of Cera ingen Leoid in March 2000 (A-Meridies):

While elements from Gaelic and Norse may have been used in a single name, the name itself would be written either entirely in Gaelic or Norse, although the same name could have been written in either language depending on the context.

Curiously, while the name submission is brand new, this device is a resubmission. The submitter states that the previous version (which I believe to have been Quarterly Or and sable, in bend two bears combattant gules and in bend sinister two compass stars argent) was returned by the kingdom of Artemisia; I have been unable as yet to get full details on that, but I expect it would have been returned for the obvious problems of (1) lack of a name, and (2) appearance of marshalling. The submitter has removed the compass stars to remedy the latter.

The submitter will be advised to draw the bears larger, to fill the space better. The blazon of in bend is necessary because the position of the bears is not forced on the neutral field.

Sorcha Fhionn inghean u Ruairc - New badge
Per pale Or and argent, on a swan naiant, wings elevated and addorsed, sable a needle bendwise sinister Or.

Consensus at the meeting was that this submission is highly likely to be mistaken for official Cynaguan armory, and some felt that significant offense is likely to be taken at having it registered to an individual. I am unaware, however, of any rule or precedent permitting it to be returned on that basis (nor would I be willing to do so at kingdom.) The submitter has been emphatically warned of these concerns and wishes to proceed regardless.

Tiberius Addams - New name and device
Per pale rayonny gules and argent, a death's head argent and a cup-hilted rapier sable.

Tiberius is a name of Roman origin. Morlet v. II cites the name being used in Gaul: "Tiberius: Pip. II. 40. 19 (Novalie); Obit. S. Germ. (X^e s.), p. 266." There may also have been a Saint Tiberius martyred in France.

Addams is an English surname. Withycombe (s.n. Adam) cites the root name from the Domesday Book. Reaney & Wilson (s.n. Adam) cite William Adames from 1327 along with variations on the pet form Addy/Ade: John Adies 1327, William Addes 1379 (both s.n. Addey), John Addisone 1308 (s.n. Addison), Adiman 1204 and John Addeman 1379 (both s.n. Addyman). We feel this makes the switch to the double 'd' plausible.

Willem Troch de L'isle - New name and device
Argent goutty de sang, a demi-lion sable maintaining a fleam gules.

Client requests authenticity for 14th-15th century Flanders language/culture. Language (Flemish) most important.

Submitted as Willem Troch D'Lille, we have adjusted the grammar and substituted the nearest spelling of the place name for which we could find a dated citation.

Willem is a Dutch masculine given name. "Dutch Names 1358-1361" by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Sara L. Uckelman) at http://heraldry.sca.org/names/dutch/earlydutch14.html cites this spelling as the most common form of the name.

Troch is a Flemish byname. "Flemish Bynames from Bruges, 1400-1600: S-Z" at http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/bruges/byname-list4.html cites this as first appearing between 1400 and 1550.

de L'isle is a locative referring to the modern Lille in Flanders. The submitter cited a tourist web site at http://www.lilletourism.com/history_of_lille-1-0-83-gb.html which notes the antiquity of the place (first mentioned in a 1066 charter as Isla but fails to give any date for the modern spelling. La guide des chemins de France, Estienne, Charles (1504?-1564) 1552, reproduced at http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k102662df51.image.pagination , shows the spelling L'isle for two locations in Flanders.


Jonathan Chance - New device

Quarterly sable and gules, a cross and in canton a death's head argent.

The submitter provided payment for only one item; since the device cannot be sent on without a name, we sent the name on without the device instead.

Nyfain Maighe Tuireadh - Resub name and device to kingdom (July 2007)
Per chevron ploy sable and vert, two triquetras and a wolf's head cabossed argent.

The previous submission of Caitriona of Magh Tuireadh was returned primarily for failure to document the place name as other than legendary and use of the English preposition with the Gaelic place name. The device could not be sent on without a name.

Nyfain is cited from "Names of Women of the Brythonic North in the 5-7th Centuries" by Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn (Heather Rose Jones) at http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/brythonic/ as the name of a 5th C woman. According to the author (in private communication) this is a modernized spelling consistent with the 15th C or later. Bartrum cites several references which are apparently to this same person, using various spellings none of which match this submission. Maighe Tuireadh is a Gaelic locative byname formed as the genitive of the place name Magh Tuireadh. For the latter, the online "Annals of the Four Masters" at href="http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G100005D/text003.html (entry M1398.15) reads in part

Ua Concobhair Ruadh & Mac Diarmata do dhul sluagh ln- mhr ar Cloinn n-Donnchaidh Tire h-Oilealla go rangattar Magh Tuireadh.
As I do not read Gaelic, I cannot be certain that this documents the place name, but it certainly looks promising. The submitter's documentation noted modern place names said to be derived from the original, but did not establish any single actual place known in period by the submitted spelling.

Unfortunately, the given name is Welsh and the byname Gaelic.

This name mixes Welsh and Gaelic; such combinations are unregisterable." - Jan. 2005 LOAR, R-Atlantia, Saige inghean Ghiolla Phdraig.
Consequently the name must be returned and, as before, the device cannot be sent on without a name.

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