Minutes of the August, 2011 Heralds Meeting

Click here for a Printer Friendly (Black and White) version
Minutes Page
Main Herald's Web Page


MINUTES OF THE MONTHLY MEETING – 21 August XLVI (2011)

The meeting was held on Sunday, 21 August 2011, in Stockton. The meeting started at 12:05PM and ended at 2:15PM. In attendance at this meeting were: Owen ap Morgan, Matins; Moira O’Connor, Vesper; Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym, Brachet; Astrið of Swansvale, Latimer; Maxen Dawel ap Morgan, Exchequer; Vincenzo Saracini, Glora Fjord; Ana Maria de Acosta; Bran Blaiddlach; Edward of Guildford; and Morwenna of Tintagel.
Special guest appearance by Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn as The Harpy.

COLLEGE OF HERALDS MEETINGS
Meetings were held on September 11, October 22, and November 20. There is no meeting in December 2011.
The usual Twelfth Night meeting will be held at the hotel at 10AM Sunday morning, January 8, 2012. All senior and branch heralds are expected to attend save those excused by distance and/or prior arrangement.

Time change: As my father has started holding Quaker meetings in our home some Sunday mornings, heraldry meetings will now start at 1:00 PM in order to avoid conflict. Please do not arrive before noon, as the (silent) Quaker meetings will run until then.

PLEASE NOTE: Unless and until specified otherwise, the regular meetings are now taking place in Stockton at the home of Owen ap Morgan, Matins Herald:

2023 Oak Branch Dr
Stockton, CA 95205
(209) 463-6861 (message)
Contact Owen for directions. The drive is approximately an hour from Sacramento and an hour and a half from either Berkeley or San Jose via Livermore.

Walk-in submissions are generally permitted but not encouraged, as they do not allow for advance review and prep work.. If you are bringing the paperwork for a submission to a meeting, please plan to arrive by 12:30 PM to allow the file to be pulled or set up. For meetings not held in Stockton (Collegium, 12th Night, etc.) sufficient advance notice to pull any existing file will be required.

We are conducting some preliminary name research through the West Kingdom heraldic consultation mailing list wkheralds_consults@yahoogroups.com . This list is open to all those interested in West Kingdom book heraldry: both names and devices, and either to contribute or to ask questions. To join the list, please subscribe through Yahoo or at wkheralds_consults-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. If you subscribe by e-mail, you can complete the process by replying to the confirmation e-mail; it is not necessary to log in to Yahoo. Please note that initial posts are moderated and thus may not appear on the list immediately.

PERSONNEL -- RECENT CHANGES AND POSITIONS AVAILABLE:


REPORTS

Moira, Vesper- Roster letters for the heraldic officers are not done yet but are expected to be completed within a week. Vesper will be at Purgatorio.

Anne, Green Cloak – No report.

Ketiley, Banner- No report.

Eilis, Baldric- Classes at the Golden Rivers event were well attended. The kingdom ceremony book is being reprinted because of errors.

Owen, Matins – Nothing to report except the LOAR (below) and the usual business of the meeting.

Astrið, Latimer- Missed the previous meeting due to illness. Consultation took place at June Crown and the Golden Rivers event; the latter was better attended.

Gwenhwyfaer, Brachet- Commentary is up to date and the group is taking some time off. Attendance at meetings is typically 4-5 people.

Hirsch, Golem- No report.

Gillian, Seawolf – No report.

Caoilinn, Sable Swan – July investiture went really well and the report is in.

Bianca, Stellanordica – Assumed office and got the investiture court report in.

Maxen, exchequer- No report.


ANNOUNCEMENTS

SUBMISSIONS GUIDELINES

UPCOMING EVENTS
The next regularly scheduled appearance of the consultation table will be in March. Special appearances at local events may be possible by prior arrangement with Latimer; we have actually been getting better turnout at some of these than at Crowns and Coronets.

The 2012 Known World Heralds and Scribes Symposium will be held in the East Kingdom (Rhode Island) over the weekend of June 22-24. Yes, this is the same weekend as West Kingdom June Crown Tourney. Sigh. Those desiring a more convenient time and location may desire to investigate the logistics of hosting one. It hasn't been held in the West in some time.

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENTS

VOICE HERALDRY: Greencloak will continue to hold voice heraldry training sessions at the beginning of events to encourage involvement at the event.

MAILING LIST: The West Kingdom College of Heralds has a mailing list for internal communication. Any herald is welcome to join by request. To join the list, please subscribe at wkheralds-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.

ELECTRONIC RESOURCES: Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at http://www.sca.org/heraldry, including the Laurel home page, the on-line Armorial and Ordinary (with search capabilities) and The Academy of St. Gabriel (an onomastic and heraldic consultation service). The West Kingdom Heraldry site and the West Kingdom Awards List can be accessed through the West Kingdom site, http://www.westkingdom.org. Heraldic queries may also be addressed to Moira at herald@westkingdom.org -- answers may take a few days.

West Kingdom College of Heralds Minutes are published on the web. They may be read at or printed from the heralds' website at http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Minutes.htm. There is a colored version and a printer-friendly black and white version available.

BRACHET MEETINGS
These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. The meetings are held most Mondays at 7:00 pm at 4317 Alderwood Way, Sacramento, CA 95864. Call Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym (Brachet) for more information, (916) 323-4268 or email her, .

EAST BAY COMMENTING MEETINGS
These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. Please consider attending – you do not have to be able to attend every week. They are a fast way to learn how the Rules of Submission work and how to research armory. These meetings have changed location and are now in Walnut Creek on Wednesday nights. If you are interested, contact the Latimer Herald, Astrið of Swansvale (Gretchen Lebednik) at .


EXCERPTS FROM THE LOAR

The cover letters, acceptances and returns for the past can be found at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/. If you are interested in responding to some of the calls for commentary put out by the Laurel Queen of Arms, please be sure to visit the site.

MAY 2011 LOAR

Cover letter

From Pelican: Some Name Resources (A Series)

Latin plays a curious role in the way we talk about names (and in terms of what combinations we allow for registration). That's because Latin and how it is used changes across our period. You'll often see terms like "Latinized" that will, I hope, make a little more sense when this is done.

In Roman times, a language we call Latin or Classical Latin, was the everyday language people spoke. You can find dictionaries of it online, such as Lewis and Short's dictionary found at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059. Over time, different dialects and less learned forms developed; we call them as a group Vulgar Latin. As the Roman Empire fell apart in the 5th century, the kinds of Vulgar Latin became more different, until finally we start calling them Romance and then French, Italian, Spanish, and the like. But that's a story for another day.

While Latin fell out of use as an everyday spoken language, it remained a language of the government and the church. Thus, names continued to be recorded in Latin, although the names were not themselves Latin in content (remembering that Latin has given way to Romance languages). Even in areas that had never been Latin-speaking, Latin became the language of record for much of the Middle Ages (though this is not true of Russia and parts of Eastern Europe).

Therefore, we can talk about names being recorded in vernacular forms, which render the names in the way they would have been spoken in the everyday language (English, French, etc.) spoken in a region, and in Latinized forms, which render the names in Latin. The relationship between vernacular and Latinized forms is complicated: some vernacular names are derived from old Latin names (or by names originally from Greek, Hebrew, etc., that are transmitted through Latin), while others never appeared in classical Latin. Some Latinized forms are quite similar to the vernacular forms: Robert is recorded in Latin as Robertus and Edith is recorded as Editha. Others are more distant from their vernacular forms: Giles is recorded in Latin as Egidius, John is recorded as Iohannes, and Denis is recorded as Dionysius. In some cases, these names are etymologically linked; in other cases, the associations between the vernacular and Latinized forms are unclear. Some names are even treated as strange undeclinable forms (a declension is just a fancy word for the changes to a word as it does different things in a sentence, like they/them/their), and are used in Latin contexts with no changes to the root name. That means that it can be hard for a submitter to determine from a Latinized form what the vernacular should be (and vice versa).

We will register Latin names from the classical period, but most of the "Latin" names we register are Latinized forms of names in some language. These names can be registered in completely vernacular forms, completely Latinized forms, or in mixes of vernacular and Latinized forms. That's because we can find records for most places that have completely Latinized forms, mostly vernacular forms, or some mix (most commonly Latinized given names and vernacular bynames, but other mixes are found too). We can often construct a Latinized form from a vernacular form of a name, or vice versa. But we can only do that when we have enough information about both vernacular and Latinized names in that language; thus we often cannot do that for the cultures that did not continue after Roman times.

For purposes of lingual mixes, Latin is its own language when we're talking about the classical stuff. But by the Middle Ages, that's not true. Latinized English is English: records written down in Latin by English speakers recording everyday information are considered linguistically English for purposes of determining possible lingual mixes. This is true even when the elements are identical to those used in classical Latin. Similarly, Latinized Italian is considered Italian, Latinized German is considered German, etc. Of course, some Latinized elements will be the same across time and space: for example, Iulianus first appears as a Latin cognomen, but will be used to render medieval English Julian, French Julien, Italian Giuliano and other names across Europe. But you cannot take a Latinized example from French and assume without documentation that a similar form is justifiable in German, for example.

From Wreath: Chevrons, Per Chevron, and Their Inversions

On the Cover Letter for the December 2010 LoAR, published in February 2011, we asked commenters for their opinions on a proposal regarding more proper depictions of chevrons, the per chevron line of division, and their inversions. We proposed putting strong limitations on charges above the tip of a chevron or a per chevron line of division, or below the tip of a chevron inverted or a per chevron inverted line of division.

Many examples were presented of charges above a chevron or per chevron line of division, or below the point of a chevron inverted or per chevron inverted line of division in period heraldry, so we will not be limiting that practice.

Examples provided in commentary did present evidence that in period, chevrons and the per chevron line of division were typically drawn to take up as much space as possible; this generally meant that the line was fairly steep, throughout, or nearly so. However, in some heraldic jurisdictions, the chevron was much shallower. Therefore, we will not regulate the steepness of chevrons or the per chevron or per chevron inverted lines of division at this time.

What was found, however, was that in every case, the chevron or per chevron line was vertically centered in the area available to it, taking the placement of any secondaries present into account. The notional mid-line of the charge or line of division would nearly always line up with a per fess line drawn centered on the available space.

Pictures help: Notice that on the escutcheon attached as figure 1, the dashed line X is the per fess line of the entire escutcheon. However, in the presence of the chief, the available space has a notional mid-point line marked by the dashed line labeled Y. Similarly, both chevrons (figures 2 and 3) have a notional mid-point line at c, and the distance above the mid-line (a) and below it (b) should be the same.

Escutcheon, where line Y is halfway between the bottom of the chief and the tip of the shield

Figure 1

Steep chevron with line c halfway between the top tip and the two bottom tips

Figure 2

Shallow chevron with line c halfway between the top tip and the two bottom tips

Figure 3

The following guidelines on chevrons and per chevron field divisions, and their inversions, will be enforced starting at the November 2011 Laurel meetings:

The end result is that per chevron lines of division alone on the field, or between three charges, should not be entirely, or even mostly, below where a per fess line would be. Chevrons which are shallow enough to be confused with a fess remain unregisterable.

More information on the research that led to this decision, including a large number of period exemplars, can be found in the article "A Visual Survey of the Chevron and Friends: Fun with Triangular Field Divisions" by Emma de Fetherstan in the Proceedings of the 2011 Known World Heraldic and Scribal Symposium.

West Kingdom acceptances

Bran of Rivenoak. Holding name and device (see RETURNS for name). Or, a pavilion gules, in chief three grenades sable flamed gules.

Submitted under the name Bran MacMurrough.

Helga skjaldmær. Name.

Johann von der Müre. Name and device. Per pale sable and argent, on a flame gules a sword inverted argent, a ford proper.

The submitter may wish to know that commenters found the originally submitted spelling von der Mure. However, as he prepared new forms which allow no changes, we cannot make that change without his explicit permission.

Jonathan Chance. Name.

Nice 16th century English name!

Lakhan Bornin syn. Name and device. Quarterly Or and sable, in bend two bears combatant gules.

Submitted as Loclan Bjornson, the name was changed at Kingdom to Lochlainn Bjarnarson.

The form on the Letter of Intent is a good balance between what he submitted and meeting his request for authenticity (12th Century Rus or Viking). However, the submitter was told about two alternatives: a completely Russian 12th century Lakhan Bornin syn or a completely Viking Lokki or Laki Bjarnarson. The submitter indicated that he preferred the Russian name to the form he submitted; we have therefore made that change.

If the submitter were interested in a name closer in sound to his submission, he might consider the following. Commenters could not find evidence that the spelling Loclan was used in period. The closest form they could find was the Scots Lochlan. This did not appear until long after the 12th century. It could be registered with a later Scandinavian form of the byname, such as Biornson. The name Lochlan Biornson would be a step from period practice, for the mix of Scots and one of several Scandinavian languages.

Please instruct the submitter to draw the bears larger, so they nearly fill the available space.

Sorcha Fhionn inghean uí Ruairc. Badge. Per pale Or and argent, on a swan naiant, wings elevated and addorsed, sable a needle bendwise sinister Or.

There was some concern expressed that the submitted armory is too similar to several pieces of armory belonging to the Principality in which Sorcha lives. The device is well clear of all of their armorial registrations. We do not protect similarity of concept. Indeed, using a similar motif in one's own arms as are found in the arms of one's liege-lord is a period practice, according to Gayre in Heraldic Cadency. There is no issue of presumption or pretense according to our rules.

Tiberius Addams. Name and device. Per pale rayonny gules and argent, a death's head argent and a cup-hilted rapier sable.

Tiberius was the name of a saint, who was venerated at Montpellier during the Middle Ages. Thus the given name is compatible with an English byname.

Willem Troch van Ryssel. Name and device. Argent goutty de sang, a demi-lion sable maintaining a fleam gules.

Appearing on the Letter of Intent as Willem Troch de L'isle, the name was changed from the submitted Willem Troch d'Lille. While the kingdom form is correct, the much smaller change to de Lille is another 15th century form (from for example Morlet's Étude d'anthroponymie picarde).

We would make this change, but the submitter requested authenticity for 14th-15th c Flanders. As submitted the name mixes Dutch and French forms; an authentic form would not (though a person's name may be recorded in both French and Dutch forms in different documents).

A fully Flemish form would be Willem Troch van Ryssel, while a French form would be Guillaume de Lille. As the former is closer to his submission than the latter, we have changed it to that form in order to meet his authenticity request.

West Kingdom returns

Bran MacMurrough. Name.

Unfortunately, this name conflicts with the registered Bran Mac Murchada. The given names are identical. While the bynames are different in appearance, they are too similar in sound. The two names are simply the rendering of the same byname in Gaelic and in Anglicized forms. The pronunciation is thus identical.

His device has been registered under the holding name Bran of Rivenoak.

In Service,
Owen ap Morgan
Matins Herald


SUBMISSONS – 21 August, XLVI (2011)

ITEMS SENT TO LAUREL

Alan of Wesley - New name (see Returns for device)

The submitter puts a priority on the submitted spelling, and in particular wants "of Wesley" to match the byname of his father Arthur Lemner of Wesley (registered May 1986 via the West.) We have requested but not received a letter documenting that relationship, so the grandfather clause is not yet satisfied.

Alan is an English masculine given name. Withycombe (s.n. Alan) cites the Latinized spelling Alanus from 1071-5, 1086, 1189-1212, and 1284. Reaney & Wilson (s.n. Allain) identify Alan as the Old Breton form and state that the name (presumably in its various spellings) "was popular with the Bretons who came over with the Conqueror, particularly in Lincolnshire, where it ranked eighth in popularity in the 12th century . . . ."

of Wesley is a lingua Anglica version of an English locative byname using a constructed spelling variant of the place name Westleigh. Reaney & Wilson (s.n. Wesley) cite Wlmar de Westle from c1095 and Adam de Westeleg' from 1242. Ekwall shows occasional loss of the 't' in 'West-' formations, citing the spelling Weslega from the Domesday Book along with Westlegh from 1242 (s.n. Leigh), and both Wesberie from the Domesday Book and Westberia from 1167 (s.n. Westbury), each pair apparently referring to the same place. For '-ley', Ekwall cites the spellings Catesley from 1242, Cattelegh from 1251, and Catteley from 1279 (s.n. Catley), all from Herefordshire if not referring to the same place. Based on this we feel de Wesley should be a plausible 12th C variant of the documented de Westeleg', and that of Wesley is thus a suitable lingua Anglica form.

We are aware that the given name spelling Alan and surname spelling Wesley can both be documented in late period, e.g., from the IGI parish record extracts, but these do not appear to support the submitter's desired Alan of Wesley.



Eibhilín O'Mulclahy - New name (see Returns for device)

The submitter puts a priority on sound and language, specifically a "Gaelic version of Evelyn O'Mulcahy".

Eibhilín is an Irish Gaelic feminine given name. The article "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Aibhilín, Eibhilín" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien) at http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Aibhilin.shtml gives this as an Early Modern Irish Gaelic form, though the only source citation for the spelling is "/pub/celt/texts/G402091.txt"; Line 505: 142] is é oidhre Eibhilín", attributed as a poetry reference in an "email from Effrick neyn Kenneoch - 13 Sep 2001". The spellings of this name which are cited by date range from 1498-1583.

O'Mulclahy is an Anglicized Irish Gaelic masculine patronymic byname. Woulfe cites this spelling in italics as a variant of the Gaelic header Ó Maol?lui?e. As an Anglicized form it should be usable with a feminine given name.

There is a step from period practice for combining Gaelic with Anglicized Gaelic, but this appears to be the only one.



Galen ap Rhys - New name and device
Argent semy of compass stars vert, two axes in saltire, heads addorsed, sable surmounted by a boar's head cabossed gules.

The submitter puts a priority on Welsh language and the meaning "Galen, son of Rhys".

Submitted as Galen Ap Rhys, we have corrected the erroneous capitalization.

Galen is an English masculine given name. In submitting Galen the Patient in our Mar. 2011 LOI we noted:

Galen is the name by which a famous doctor of the Classical era was known, as well as an English masculine given name from 1619. In registering Galen of Black Diamond in Apr. 1996 (A-Atlantia), the LOAR stated:
The medical writings of Claudius Galenus, better known as Galen, were known in the Middle Ages, and there are a few examples of English use of Classical names c. 1200, so we are giving the name the benefit of the doubt.
In registering Galen MacKintoch in Nov. 2007 (A-Atenveldt), the LOAR stated:
Galen had previously been registerable in English and Scots as a literary name. However, this submitter was able to document the name in use in England in our gray area:

There is a Galen Browne who was a late period physician; he practiced medicine in English [sic] 1619-1639

(http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=17273&strquery=Galen).

Commentary further noted that the spelling Galen can be found as a late period English surname, and the name Galen the Patient was registered in the June 2011 LOAR.

ap Rhys is a Welsh masculine patronymic byname. Rhys is the standard modern spelling of a period Welsh masculine given name. P.C. Bartrum's Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts gives this spelling repeatedly in the Hen Lwythau Gwynedd A'r Mars (pp.113, 115, 116, 119). While Bartrum's spellings are only as good as his sources', it appears to me that the principal source for this section is Cardiff MS. 25, written in 1640 by John Jones of Gelli Lyfdy, and that the supplementary sources are pre-1600. This should put the spelling Rhys at worst in the gray area.

Previous registration of the spelling "Rhys" has been based on a Bardsley (s.n. Lewis) attestation of "Lewis ap Rhys, prebendary of St. David's, 1502: [Hist. and Ant. St. David's], p. 361." Unfortunately (both for this in particular and the reliability of Bardsley in general), it seems likely that the cited source is well post-period and uses normalized spellings.

In e-mail correspondence, Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn said:

The most useful benchmark I've found for literate 16th c. Welsh spellings is Lewis Dwnn's Visitation of Wales (ca. 1600). While some of his spellings are idiosyncratic, for the most part he is consistent with what emerges as standard early modern Welsh spelling.

The use of initial "rh" is extremely rare at this date, although not unknown. Dwnn seems to consistently avoid it in personal names, although it appears in some common words. For Rhys he regularly has <Rys> and the examples I can find of Rhydderch appear as <Rydderch>. He regularly gives the patronymic element as <ap> whether before consonants or vowels.

Dwnn is:

Dwnn, Lewys, ed. By Samuel Rush Meyrick. 1846. Heraldic Visitations of Wales and Part of the Marches (vols I & II). Welsh Manuscripts Society, Llandovery.

The submitter is advised to draw the compass stars in a more regular manner.



Lina Wynter - New name (see Returns for device)

The submitter would have preferred the given name "Mina", or something which could reasonably be shortened to that as a nickname, but has been unable to document any such. The name appears here as she submitted it, however.

Lina is an English feminine given name attested with a single instance in the article "Women's Given Names from Early 13th Century England" by Talan Gwynek (Brian Scott) at http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/eng13/eng13f.html (thus a no-copy source.)

Wynter is an English surname. The article "Names found in the Berkeley Hundred Court Rolls" by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Sara L. Friedemann) at http://heraldry.sca.org/names/english/berkeley100.html attests a Thomas Wynter from 1543.

There may be a step from period practice for the temporal gap between these citations. We note the registration of Magdalena Winter (Apr. 2002 East), but barring specific period evidence of people known both by the given name Magdalena and a short form which would not count as different from Lina we feel this should not conflict.



Mikolaj de Bracy - New badge
Azure, in pale two lions passant guardant Or, a bordure compony Or and gules.



Tuathflaith inghean Máedóc - New name and device
Argent, a dragon purpure and a wolf sable combattant within an orle of ivy vine vert.

The submitter puts a priority on 6th-10th century Irish culture.

Tuathflaith is an Irish Gaelic feminine given name. The article "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Tuathflaith" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien) at http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Tuathflaith.shtml gives this as an Old Irish Gaelic form, though no specific instance of the spelling is cited. The dates for the spellings which are cited range from 728-754.

inghean Máedóc is intended to be an Irish Gaelic feminine patronymic byname. The spelling inghean is cited in connection with one of the spelling variants attested for Tuathflaith in the source given above. The article "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Máedóc" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien) at http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Maedoc.shtml gives this as the header form, but does not cite any instances of this spelling nor claim that it is correct for any particular period, either as a nominative or genitive form. The dates for the cited instances range from 624-660.

While it seems that some form of this name should be registerable, I lack the expertise in Gaelic to determine precisely what it should be. The name was sent on with a request for the assistance of the College in correcting the spelling and/or grammar.



ITEMS RETURNED FOR FURTHER WORK

Alan of Wesley - New device

Per chevron azure semy of [charges] Or and gules, an Oriental dragon [posture unblazonable] and a three-toed winged lion segreant guardant Or.

The difficulty in blazoning this item points up the fatal problems it has with style. The strewn charges in chief, described by the submitter as estoiles, are actually six-pointed objects with the points alternately straight and singly curved (not the double or more curve typical of estoiles.) With the curved points shown surmounting the straight ones, they most resemble some sort of flower (curved points petals, straight points barbs), but not one we could identify and blazon.

The dragon is seen in trian aspect, partly from above and partly from the side, with one of the rear legs bent so as to surmount the tail rather than being entirely on one side of the body. It most suggests flailing around in free fall, an interpretation with which the facial expression is consistent. This is neither a posture known to heraldry nor one consistent with the static appearance of animate charges found in heraldry.

This needs to be redrawn using identifiable strewn charges and a recognized posture for the dragon. Postures closest to the image would probably be passant (full side view with all legs fully below the body) or tergiant fesswise (full top view with the pairs of legs fully spread on opposite side of the body.)



Eibhilín O'Mulclahy - New device
Per fess azure and vert, on a fess argent a brown bear statant proper.

Unfortunately, this conflicts with the badge of Lesotho (non-SCA) Mar. 2007 Laurel: Per fess azure and vert, on a fess argent a conical hat sable. There is only one CD for the cumulative changes to the charges on the fess.



Lina Wynter - New device

1st choice: Vert chausse sable semy of bits of ivy vine, a fox rampant, its bottom leg issuant from the line of division argent.

2nd choice: Vert, a fox rampant argent and a bordure sable semy of bits of ivy vine argent.

Both alternates have fatal contrast issues; none of Vert chausse sable, Vert, a pile throughout sable (a possible alternate interpretation), nor Vert, a bordure sable is permitted under the contrast rules. The nearest thing which would be permitted is Per chevron inverted vert and sable, but the lines for that should issue from the sides of the shield rather than the corners, and the point should not reach the bottom.

Both alternates also have the problematic disconnected bits of ivy vine. A single, connected ivy vine is OK, or a small number of pieces, but for scattered bits all over it would be better to use just the leaves, all oriented the same direction.

If the submitter were to redraw it as Per chevron inverted vert and sable, a fox rampant and two ivy vines in pile [i.e., angled in a 'V' arrangement] argent, it appears to us that it may be free of conflict.



Myfanwy verch Daffyd - New name and device
Argent, an ivy vine palewise vert and a gore sable.

Myfanwy is the standard modern spelling of a period feminine Welsh given name. It has specifically been ruled acceptable for use in the SCA, however.

verch is a spelling of the Welsh feminine patronymic marker valid for use pretty much throughout the SCA period.

Daffyd is an undocumented alternate spelling of the Welsh form of David. It is not found at all, even in modern times. The standard modern spelling of Dafydd should be valid for late period, which would make the name Myfanwy verch Dafydd.

Unfortunately, the name Myfanwy ferch Dafydd was registered in June 1989 through the West. This is effectively identical, so this submission conflicts with it. Adding a descriptive byname (Myfanwy [nickname] verch Dafydd) would suffice to clear this.

The device has no identifiable problems in itself, but it cannot be sent on without a name.



Minutes Page
Main Herald's Web Page