Minutes of the October, 2009 Heralds Meeting

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The meeting was held on Sunday, 24 October 2009, at Collegium Occidentalis in Burlingame, CA. The meeting started at 1:26 pm and ended at 2:45 pm. In attendance at this meeting were: Vigdís vestfirzka, Vesper; Owen ap Morgan, Latimer; Elysant atten Oke, Sable Swan; Frederick of Holland, Maxen Dawel ap Morgan, Eilis O'Boirne, Pursuivants; and Astrið of Swansvale, Matins..

The meeting schedule for the rest of 2009 is November 15. There will be no meeting in December, 2009.

The College of Heralds Collegium will be held on November 14, as a co-event with the Kingdom scribes.

The meeting schedule in 2010 is January 10, March 7, April (to be determined), May 16, and June 27, 2010. Meetings start at noon, unless otherwise announced. There will be no meeting in February or July, 2010.

Spring Heraldic Collegium will be held on Saturday, March 6, 2010.

In general, meetings will be held at Eilis’ house (2322 Russell Street, Berkeley CA 94705; 510-486-0633 -- call for directions). “Road show” meetings will be announced well in advance.

Anyone who is bringing a walk-in submission should contact Matins in advance, no later than the Monday before the meeting. This is especially important if the submitter has previous submissions, since the files are stored in a remote location. If you are bringing the paperwork for a submission to a meeting, please plan to arrive by 11:00 am to allow the file to be set up.

We are researching some of the name submissions beforehand through an email list, wknames@yahoogroups.com. This list is open by request to heralds in the West Kingdom who are interested in onomastic (name) research. To join the list, please subscribe at wknames-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.



Eilis, Vesper- Talk to current officers if you are interested in the position.

Moira, Green Cloak Herald- October Crown had a good number of volunteer heralds and trained 3 new haralds. Ann FitzRichards to run point completely at March Crown and become Greencloak in June. Check with Edward about table and boxes. Also need to replace duty tabards.

Nara’ah, Banner- Crown went reasonably well, with training for new court heralds.

Wilhelm, Baldric- People can find Heralds Collegium details on line. A couple of cross-over classes for scribes and heralds. Senior staff meeting first thing in the morning on Saturday.

Astrith, Matins – November meeting in Berkeley at the usual time and place. Backlog has been substantially reduced and should be cleared in the next week, including the posting of the minutes of recent meetings of the Kingdom College.

Owen, Latimer- Crown happened with generous assistance from various people. Coronet happened despite Latimer’s unscheduled absence.

Looking for people who are willing to make a commitment to help with consultation table on a regular basis. Perhaps the Consultation Table will only be at June Crown unless people volunteer in advance to work the table.

Consultation – specific Yahoo group? Maybe someone else to take responsibility for the pavilion? Store in Royal trailer? Request parking space for Latimer due to books, regardless of Latimer’s health, at least at events where you cannot drive up to the pavilion spot.

Ask Aurora about a group on the Kingdom web. Further discussion next month at senior staff meeting.

Gwenhwyfaer, Brachet- Holding regular meetings and pretty much up to date.

Hirsch, Golem- No report.

Muriel, Seawolf- Mists Coronet 10 volunteers, trained 2 new heralds. Working on new ceremonies to finalize before Investiture for review by Vesper and approval by the Prince and Princess of the Mists.

Elysant, Sable Swan - Has an approved successor, but if you are interested, still looking for deputies. (Moira)

Clare, Stellanordica- No report.


From Matins Herald: Please note that the "line drawing" requirement for device submissions does NOT mean a b/w photocopy of the color form.

For name submissions, we need two copies of all name forms and all documentation source printouts and/or photocopies. For device and badge submissions, we need four colored copies plus an uncolored line outline. Please use colored felt tip markers. Please do not use colored pencil, pastel colors, crayons, color printers or color copiers. The artist's signature is required, but the submitter's signature is not required. If you are using restricted or non-standard elements or any other supplemental matters, we need two copies of your supplemental paperwork.

Please make sure that all submitters print their e-mail addresses clearly. A single mistaken letter makes the e-mail address useless.

We will continue to hold voice heraldry training sessions at the beginning of events to encourage involvement at the event.

November 14 (Heraldic Collegium).

SUBMISSION REQUIREMENTS: SUBMISSION REQUIREMENTS: Submission fees are $6 per name, $6 per device, $6 per badge - and a name and device registered at the same time will cost $10 instead of $12. There is no fee for resubmission of a returned item. Submissions require 2 copies of the name packet (form and documentation), 3 colored copies and 1 line drawing of the full size device form, and 3 colored copies and 1 line drawing of the badge form, as applicable. Required documentation includes printouts of any web pages cited – including reports from the Academy of Saint Gabriel – as well as copies of the title page and cited pages from any books that are not standard heraldic references. The submission forms for the West Kingdom College are now available from Matins or the Kingdom consultation table or by following this link: http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Register.htm#Forms. Completed forms should be sent to Matins Herald (c/o Gretchen Lebednik / 2322 Russell St / Berkeley CA 94705).

MAILING LIST: The West Kingdom College of Heralds has a mailing list for internal communication. Any herald is welcome to join by request. To join the list, please subscribe at wkheralds-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.

ELECTRONIC RESOURCES: Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at http://www.sca.org/heraldry, including the Laurel home page, the on-line Armorial and Ordinary (with search capabilities) and The Academy of St. Gabriel (an onomastic and heraldic consultation service). The West Kingdom Heraldry site and the West Kingdom Awards List can be accessed through the West Kingdom site, http://www.westkingdom.org. Heraldic queries may also be addressed to Eilis and Vigdís at heralds@westkingdom.org -- answers may take a few days.

West Kingdom College of Heralds Minutes are published on the web. They may be read at or printed from the heralds' website at http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Minutes.htm. There is a colored version and a printer-friendly black and white version available.

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. The meetings are held on the second and fourth Mondays of each month at 7:00 pm at 4317 Alderwood Way, Sacramento, CA 95864. Call Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym for more information, (916) 323-4268 or email her, .

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. Please consider attending – you do not have to be able to attend every week. They are a fast way to learn how the Rules of Submission work and how to research armory. The Brachet meetings are in Berkeley on Wednesday nights. If you are interested, contact the Matins Herald, Astrith of Swansvale (Gretchen Lebednik) at or Eilis at 510-486-0633.


The cover letters, acceptances and returns for the past can be found at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/. If you are interested in responding to some of the calls for commentary put out by the Laurel Queen of Arms, please be sure to visit the site.

June LoAR – Administrative Changes
From Wreath: Forced Moves

In February, we asked the College of Arms whether or not we should change our current policy on difference for forced moves. Current interpretation holds that if the placement of the charges in either the new submission or the protected armory is dictated by other elements of the design, such as field tincture, any change of charge position is considered forced and no difference is granted for that change. Several commenters have argued that changes in charge placement should only be considered forced if the charge placement in the new submission is forced, since the position in the protected piece of armory is fixed and will never move.

We find ourselves unable to agree with the arguments in favor of changing this requirement. Returning to first principles, our goal is to ensure that two pieces of armory appear to have a minimum of two cadency steps of difference unless permission is granted. The proposed change would make even conflict between some extremely simple devices depend on the order of registration. We are unwilling to do this. We are, therefore, retaining the transitive property of forced moves: if either the new or the old position of the charges is forced, the change of position is considered forced and not counted for difference.

West –– JUNE 2009

Lizbeth Ravensholm. Reblazon of device.

Gules, a wolf passant reguardant argent maintaining on its back a raven sable.

Blazoned when registered in January 1974 under the name Marisela of Muninsgard as Gules, a wolf passant regardant argent, armed sable: perched on his back a raven croaking proper, the raven is too small to count for difference, so we are blazoning it as a maintained charge. The original blazon was ambiguous as to whether the raven was a maintained charge or a secondary charge.



In Service,

Astrith of Swansvale
Matins Herald

SUBMISSONS – 24 October, XLIV (2009)


Hallbiorn Erlaendarson -- New Device (Resub to Kingdom)

Per chevron vert crusilly and Or.

Loy Schiemann der Kleine – Resub Device

Per pale argent and sable, two crosses formy fitchy counterchanged.
Name registered May, 2009.

Reason for return of previous submission:

Per pale argent and sable, two crosses formy fitchy counterchanged.

“This device is returned for non-blazonability of the crosses. They aren't formy fitchy, which would replace the entire lower limb with a spike. Neither are they formy fitchy at the foot, which would have the spike issuant from the center third of the lower limb's bottom edge. The crosses in the submitted artwork have the spike take up the entire bottom of the lower limb: among period crosses, only the cross of Santiago has that treatment of its lower limb, and the submitted crosses are obviously not crosses of Santiago.”

The submitter has addressed the reason for return by redrawing the crosses

Magdalina Georg’eva Oshitkanova Oshakavichka -- New Name (see Returns for device)

Submitted as Magdalina Georg'eva Oshitkanova Oshakavichka.

Documented from Wickenden as follows, revised to meet the submitter's request for authenticity.

Magdalina: Wickenden [http://www.sca.org/heraldry/paul/ma.html], Section MA: Magdalina (no date) and Wickenden, 3rd ed, p. 197 under header Magdalina.

Georg'eva: Wickenden at the Laurel website, Section G: Georgii, dated to 1247 and various dated variants. Masculine Patronymics: If the name ends in "-ii", both vowels tend to drop out. They are replaced with a soft sign (`) and the "-ev" ending. Example: Vasilii becomes Vasil'ev. Feminine Patronymics: By names had to agree with the gender of the subject, which, in Rusian, means that they had to add an "a" on the end. Example: Vasil'ev becomes Vasil'eva. Thus, Georgii as a masculine patronymic becomes Georg'ev and as a feminine patronymic becomes Georg'eva. The standard patronymic (masc.) given by Wickenden is [Georgievich], though there is a [Gurgiev] also listed. The correct feminine form for what the submitter is trying to do may be [Georgieva], as this name does not seem to have taken the soft sign following the "g", possibly because it's already a soft consonant. However, by what Wickenden says on p.xxii, the form [Georg'eva] should be possible.

Oshitkanova: Wickenden at the Laurel website Section ): Oshitka listed as a masculine name dated to 1186. A fourth form of feminine patronymic was rare, but in medieval times but found in two examples dated to 1618 (Marfa Ivanova) and 1643 (Princess Evdokeia Luk'ianovna). Boroda becomes Borodovna (other examples provided).

This should be Oshitkovna or Oshitkova, not Oshitkanova. Because Oshitkova seems to be closest to the submitted form, and the submitter allows all changes and requested authenticity, I have changed this element to Oshitkova.

Oshakavichka: Submitter cited Wickenden's, List of Cities. Ochakov - located on the Black Sea and founded prior to 1598. A more common form of a geographical qualifier was the transformation of geographical location into a more standard patronymic construction. Examples: Kievich from Kiev, Moskovchich from Moscow.

The submitter suggested that Ochakov becomes Ochakovich, becomes Ochakovichka. Actually, it seems to become Ochakovicha. Because the submitter allows all changes and requested authenticity, I have changed this element to Ochakovicha.

Wickenden (p.xxxi) gives the pattern given-patronym-patronym-surname as a period name construction, and gives examples on the following page of women whose period names were this complicated.


Antonia Korvin -- New Name & New Device

Per chevron inverted sable and checky azure and argent,a chevron inverted and in chief three mullets argent.
Antonia: Page 16 of 23 pages at [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SERBIA.htm]. Under Serbia, under item 4a. Djordje Stefanovi?, cites a record in the Masarelli Vatican manuscript lists his wife as Isabella del Balzo as the daughter of the Italian Duca di Nardo and his wife Antonia Sanseverino Ctsa di Castro e Ugento.

Korvin: History of medieval Croatia. Chapter 14 (unnumbered page) discusses the reign of Mathias Corvinus Wikipedia at [http://en/wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthias_Corvinus_of_Hungary] gives versions of the name in several languagees, in cluding Serbian, Croatian, and Slovene, for which it is shown as “Korvin”.

Guldescu, Stanko. 1964. History of medieval Croatia. The Hague: Mouton & Co.

No evidence for the use of an Italian given name with a Croatian/Slovene/Serbian surname is provided. The device is being returned for lack of a name to register it to.

Magdalina Georg’eva Oshitkanova Oshakavichka -- New Device

Per fess vert and azure, a mermaid in her vanity argent, tailed Or.
We note the registered badge for Colin of Duntamknackan (8/79) Tinctureless, a merman bow in dexter and arrow in sinister hand, tail raised to sinister. The difference from a tinctureless badge must be in something other than tincture. We count no difference between a merman and a mermaid.

Magdalena Gerog’eva Oshitkanova Oshakavichka -- New Badge

Quarterly vert and azure, a chicken displayed argent, head to sinister, maintaining two rolling pins Or.
This conflicts with the following protected armory for the House of Estes (Dec 1994), Azure, an eagle displayed argent, crowned Or. And also with the protected armory for Poland (Dec 1994) Gules an eagle displayed argent, crowned Or. In each case, there is only one CD, for the change in tincture of the field. The crowns are details that do not count for difference, nor do the rolling pins.


Paul Wickenden of Thanet. "A Dictionary of Period Russian Names", 2nd ed. http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/paul/.

Paul Wickenden of Thanet. A Dictionary of Period Russian Names, 3rd edition. SCA, Inc., 2000.

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