Minutes of the November, 2009 Heralds Meeting

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The meeting was held on Sunday, 15 November 2009, at Collegium Occidentalis in Burlingame, CA. The meeting started at 12:30pm and ended at 2:15 pm. In attendance at this meeting were: Owen ap Morgan, Latimer; Frederick of Holland, Maxen Dawel ap Morgan, Eilis O'Boirne, Pursuivants; Muriel, Seawolf; and Astrið of Swansvale, Matins.

There will be no meeting in December, 2009.

The meeting schedule in 2010 is January 10, March 7, April (to be determined), May 16, and June 27, 2010. Meetings start at noon, unless otherwise announced. There will be no meeting in February or July, 2010.

Spring Heraldic Collegium will be held on Saturday, March 6, 2010.

In general, meetings will be held at Eilis’ house (2322 Russell Street, Berkeley CA 94705; 510-486-0633 -- call for directions). “Road show” meetings will be announced well in advance.

Anyone who is bringing a walk-in submission should contact Matins in advance, no later than the Monday before the meeting. This is especially important if the submitter has previous submissions, since the files are stored in a remote location. If you are bringing the paperwork for a submission to a meeting, please plan to arrive by 11:00 am to allow the file to be set up.

We are researching some of the name submissions beforehand through an email list, wknames@yahoogroups.com. This list is open by request to heralds in the West Kingdom who are interested in onomastic (name) research. To join the list, please subscribe at wknames-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.



Vigdis, Vesper- see notes

Moira, Green Cloak Herald- see notes

Na'arah, Banner- No report.

Wilhelm, Baldric- see notes

Astrith, Matins – see notes

Owen, Latimer- Looking for people who are willing to make a commitment to help with consultation table on a regular basis. Perhaps the Consultation Table will only be at June Crown unless people volunteer in advance to work the table.

Consultation – specific Yahoo group? Maybe someone else to take responsibility for the pavilion? Store in Royal trailer? Request parking space for Latimer due to books, regardless of Latimer’s health, at least at events where you cannot drive up to the pavilion spot.

Gwenhwyfaer, Brachet- Disrupted recently due to move.

Hirsch, Golem- No report.

Muriel, Seawolf- see notes

Elysant, Sable Swan - Has an approved successor, but if you are interested, still looking for deputies. (Moira)

Clare, Stellanordica- No report.

An extensive discussion was conducted on the combined issues of introducing more people to the practice of book heraldry, providing an enhanced training opportunity, and getting names and armory researched during consultation actually submitted. The consensus was that the West Kingdom College of Heralds should present a session at the fall 2010 Collegium Occidentalis that would be an all-day consultation track at which submissions would also be accepted. Artists will be available to help with transferring designs to the forms, a portable copier will be available, staff who have authority to handle money on behalf of the College will be present to accept fees, and a full slate of consultation heralds will be available both to consult and to provide training assistance to less experienced heralds.


From Matins Herald: Please note that the "line drawing" requirement for device submissions does NOT mean a b/w photocopy of the color form.

For name submissions, we need two copies of all name forms and all documentation source printouts and/or photocopies. For device and badge submissions, we need four colored copies plus an uncolored line outline. Please use colored felt tip markers. Please do not use colored pencil, pastel colors, crayons, color printers or color copiers. The artist's signature is required, but the submitter's signature is not required. If you are using restricted or non-standard elements or any other supplemental matters, we need two copies of your supplemental paperwork.

Please make sure that all submitters print their e-mail addresses clearly. A single mistaken letter makes the e-mail address useless.

We will continue to hold voice heraldry training sessions at the beginning of events to encourage involvement at the event.

Spring Collegium -- pending.

SUBMISSION REQUIREMENTS: SUBMISSION REQUIREMENTS: Submission fees are $6 per name, $6 per device, $6 per badge - and a name and device registered at the same time will cost $10 instead of $12. There is no fee for resubmission of a returned item. Submissions require 2 copies of the name packet (form and documentation), 3 colored copies and 1 line drawing of the full size device form, and 3 colored copies and 1 line drawing of the badge form, as applicable. Required documentation includes printouts of any web pages cited – including reports from the Academy of Saint Gabriel – as well as copies of the title page and cited pages from any books that are not standard heraldic references. The submission forms for the West Kingdom College are now available from Matins or the Kingdom consultation table or by following this link: http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Register.htm#Forms. Completed forms should be sent to Matins Herald (c/o Gretchen Lebednik / 2322 Russell St / Berkeley CA 94705).

MAILING LIST: The West Kingdom College of Heralds has a mailing list for internal communication. Any herald is welcome to join by request. To join the list, please subscribe at wkheralds-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.

ELECTRONIC RESOURCES: Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at http://www.sca.org/heraldry, including the Laurel home page, the on-line Armorial and Ordinary (with search capabilities) and The Academy of St. Gabriel (an onomastic and heraldic consultation service). The West Kingdom Heraldry site and the West Kingdom Awards List can be accessed through the West Kingdom site, http://www.westkingdom.org. Heraldic queries may also be addressed to Eilis and Vigdís at heralds@westkingdom.org -- answers may take a few days.

West Kingdom College of Heralds Minutes are published on the web. They may be read at or printed from the heralds' website at http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Minutes.htm. There is a colored version and a printer-friendly black and white version available.

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. The meetings are held on the second and fourth Mondays of each month at 7:00 pm at 4317 Alderwood Way, Sacramento, CA 95864. Call Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym for more information, (916) 323-4268 or email her, .

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. Please consider attending – you do not have to be able to attend every week. They are a fast way to learn how the Rules of Submission work and how to research armory. The Brachet meetings are in Berkeley on Wednesday nights. If you are interested, contact the Matins Herald, Astrith of Swansvale (Gretchen Lebednik) at or Eilis at 510-486-0633.


The cover letters, acceptances and returns for the past can be found at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/. If you are interested in responding to some of the calls for commentary put out by the Laurel Queen of Arms, please be sure to visit the site.

July LoAR – Administrative Changes
From Laurel: Over the past year, there has been growing sentiment that it is once again time to look at our rules and discuss whether or not the precepts on which we base our decisions need to be altered, since they have not changed substantially in two decades. Additionally, it has been suggested, since so many decisions are based on precedent, that we incorporate large portions of those precedents into the rules.

Palimpsest has prepared points for discussion, which will appear shortly as a rules letter on OSCAR. We would ask that all interested parties make their feelings on our current rules known as part of this discussion.

Note from Matins: the points for discussion are available at: http://oscar.sca.org/. Click on LoIs (either in the top row of choices or the list on the left) and select the Palimpsest Rules Letter dated October 31, 2009.

West –– July 2009

Adriana Ida van Kortrijk. Name.

The LoI documented both Adriana and Ida as Dutch names. However, no evidence was provided for the use of double given names in Dutch, and precedent forbidding their use, barring such evidence, was upheld as recently as October 2008 (v. Johanne die Waeyer, Artemisia-A). However, both given names can also be found in English. Ida is dated to 1086, 1175, 1195, 1207, 1230, 1275, 1296, 1302, 1327, and 1346 in Talan Gwynek, "Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames". Adriana can be found in 16th-century baptismal records:

Adriana Arnold, bap. 19 Sept. 1588, Glatton, Huntingdonshire

Adriana Blanshert, bap. 09 Feb. 1582, Howden, Yorkshire

Adriana Haule, bap. 28 April 1562, Hartwell, Buckinghamshire

Adriana Hodge, bap. 25 Aug. 1566, St. Andrew, Enfield, London

Adriana Slayter, bap. 17 Oct. 1547, Howden, Yorkshire

As double given names are registerable in English, using this documentation for the given names, this name is registerable as a mixed English/Dutch name. This lingual combination is a step from period practice.

The submitter requested authenticity for Flemish, but did not allow major changes, except for changes to the preposition to make the byname authentic. Either Adriana van Kortrijk or Ida van Kortrijk would be an authentic name for a Dutch woman living in Flanders.

Angelina Taina Besova. Name.

The submitter requested authenticity for Russia. This is a fine late-period Russian name.

Bjarnheðinn Hamarsson. Name and device. Gules, a hammer Or within an orle of bezants.

Listed on the LoI as Bjarnheðinn Hamersson, both the forms and the documentation spelled the byname Hamarsson. We have made this correction.

This device is clear of the device of Geirdís Valsdóttir, Gules, a club inverted Or within an orle of bezants. There is a CD for inverting the primary charge and a CD for the type of primary charge.

Cormac MacKay. Device. Sable, a sinister canton checky vert and argent.

Jocelyn of Rowenwood. Badge. (Fieldless) A dog couchant contourny argent, charged on the shoulder with a fleur-de-lis vert.

This badge is clear of that of Kean de Lacy, (Fieldless) A fox couchant to sinister argent. There is a CD for fieldlessness and a CD for the addition of the fleur-de-lis.

Please instruct the submitter that the dog's hindquarters should be on the ground, not slightly raised.

Martin de Huy. Device. Or, a wolf's head couped contourny azure and a bordure sable.

Stephen von Behrend. Reblazon of device. Azure, a lightning flash bendwise argent between in pale a mullet of eight points and a dagger inverted Or.

Blazoned when registered, in June 1976, as Azure, a lightning flash bendwise argent between in chief a mullet of eight points and in base a dagger inverted Or, the usual assumption for that blazon would be that the secondaries would be arranged in bend. They are not; they are aligned with the vertical axis of the field.

The lightning flash is depicted in this device in the no longer registerable fashion that is currently referred to informally as a shazam.

Úlfar inn svarti Þórisson. Name.

Listed on the LoI as Úlfarr inn svarti Þórisson, the name was originally submitted as Úlfar inn Svarti órisson, and changed in kingdom. While precedent requires that Old Norse descriptive bynames like inn svarti be registered in the lower case, the change of the spelling of the given name was not required, as the submitted documentation, Aryanhwy merch Catmael, "Viking Names found in the Landnamabok", spells the given name Úlfar. The introduction to this article says "With two exceptions, I have used Fleck's spellings, which are normalized Old Norse spellings and do not reflect the spellings actually used in the manuscripts. The second exception is when Fleck's spellings differ from Arnórsson's, I have used Arnórsson's, because he is more consistent in his normalizations." Úlfar is one of the names where Arnórsson's normalization differs from Fleck's. Because both are registerable, we have restored the given name to the originally submitted form.


Tama Katerina Evstokh'eva. Name reconsideration from Katerina Evstokh'eva.

According to the LoI,
This is an Appeal/Request for Reconsideration of Name. The submitter wishes to register <Tama Katerina Evstokh'eva> or <Tamara Katerina Evstokh'eva> or <Tamar Katerina Evstokh'eva>.

The name Tama Katerina Evstokh'eva was previously submitted and registered as Katerina Evstokh'eva in October 2004. The element Tama was dropped for lack of documentation:

Submitted as Tama Katerina Evstokh'eva, the name Tama is not formed according to documented Russian practice. Nebuly explains:
The addition of an -a will rarely create a feminized form in Slavic languages, and more often creates a masculine diminutive of a given name, e.g. Antip/Antipa, Dorosh/Dorosha (Dorofei), Kharko/Kharka (Khariton). For each pair of names, both forms are listed as masculine by Wickenden. I was able to pull all three of these example pairs from Wickenden in less than a minute by opening to random pages, which should show evidence that this pattern is common.

Adding an -a is only a general pattern of feminization in Slavic names in certain special cases where the root name is a standard old dithematic name, like Borislav, Borimir, Svetislav, Svetimir, etc. Of the three examples presented in the LoI, only one is of this type (Rostislav/Rostislava), and is legitimately a feminization. However, since the submission uses the proposed masculine root Tam, which is not a dithematic name in Russian, such examples do not apply toward justifying this submission. They represent a different specialized case.

According to the Admin Handbook, appeals of returned names and requests for reconsideration of registered names apply only to the originally submitted form of the name, and not alternates:

AH IV.E Right of Appeal - A submitter shall have the right to appeal any return to Laurel; to be treated as an appeal, the submission must be identical to the returned submission.

AH IV.F. Request for Reconsideration - A submitter may request reconsideration of changes made as a result of a request for authenticity or for registerability in a name submission. All requests must either: (a) be supported by new documentation supporting the original name as complying with the requested authenticity or registerability standards, (b) submit a request that the name be changed to a form based on information provided in Laurel's (or the kingdom's) decision, or (c) include a request that the original name be considered with no request for authenticity.

(Emphasis added).

If this is treated as a request for reconsideration, then only clause (a) of IV.F. is relevant. The only new documentation provided in support of the original name as complying with standards of registerability was: "wikipedia for Tama as a Hebrew name." This is not adequate documentation: It gives no evidence that Tama is a period feminine name from a culture which is compatible with Russian. Thus, we must deny the request for reconsideration.

If she wishes either of the alternative forms Tamara Katerina Evstokh'eva or Tamar Katerina Evstokh'eva to be considered, then this is no longer a request for reconsideration, but a name change. As a name change, fees need to be paid. Since no fees were paid, we cannot consider the alternate forms.

In Service,

Astrith of Swansvale
Matins Herald

SUBMISSONS – 24 November, XLIV (2009)


Annora Raines - New Device

Per pale gules and Or, a fleur-de-lys counterchanged Or and sable.
Name registered March 2008.

Conrad Jäger von Thüringen – New Name

See Returns for device.

Conrad: from a list of German tax records dated to 1441 at http://ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/german/rottweil1441.html.

Socin Mittlehochdeutsches Namenbuch p. 107: Conradus Gutman de Hadestat dated to 1254.

Jäger: German for "hunter" is the only documentation provided.

Brechenmacher: under surname Jäger: "Bercht. dictus Jäger" 1280.

von Thürigen: A city in Germany, with the name dating to the 9th century. http://factmonster.com/ce6/world/A0848648.html. The German form of Thuringia is Thüringen.

Brechenmacher: under surname Düring(er): "Kunr. Durinc" dated 1178 and Gerardus Turingus dated 1247.

The surname page includes multiple examples of the format "von X" where X is a placename, e.g., von Aichhalden, von Andelfinen, von Augspurg, etc. etc. etc.

Bahlow's "Deutschlands Geographische Namenwelt" has an entry for Thüringen but is not concerned with specific historic spellings.

Cynehild Cynesigesdohtor – New Name Change

See returns for badge.

Name change from Clare de Norwude (registered May 2008). Old name to be retained as an alternate if this is registered.

Cynehild: from a database of Anglo-Saxon names: http://www.pase.ac.uk/, several pages of <Cyne-> examples and <-hild> examples, including <Cynehild> on a list at http://eagle.cch.kcl.ac.uk:8080/pase/persons/DisplayWomen.jsp

Cynesigesdohtor: From the same citations as above, but also <Cynesige> from a list at http://www.pase.ac.uk/apps/persons/managePersonList.jsp?opened=&incld=662.

Converted to the genitive and the element <-dohter> added.

Fáelán an Faisaigh– New Name and New Device (Resub to Kingdom)

Sable, a wolf passant reguardant and on a chief invected argent, two Thor’s hammers sable
The device was returned in June 2009 for lack of a registerable name. No conflicts were found then.

Faolán: (Early Modern Irish Gaelic[c1200-c1700] nominative form Faolán) Last date noted: 1423. Index of Names in Irish Annals: Fáelán'Faolán - by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan.

Fhasaigh: Early Modern Irish Gaelic[c1200-c1700] genitive form an Fhasaigh) Last date noted: 1581. Index of Names in Irish Annals: Descriptive Bynames: an Fhasaigh - by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan.

The submitter is aware that the name is masculine but wants it because she primarily cares about the sound.

Fáelán an Faisaigh – New Badge (Resub to Kingdom)

Sable, a wolf’s head erased contourney and on a chief invected argent, two Thor’s hammers sable.
No conflicts found for the badge in June 2009, but it was returned for lack of a registerable name.

The submitter will be advised to increase the number if indents on the invecting and to increase the size of the "erased" tags.

Lleucu Bengam – New Name

See Returns for device.

Submitted as Lleucu Pengam. Changed to the lenited form for the feminine usage. submitter does allow minor changes.

Lleucu: documented from Jones (Tangwystyl), A simple guide to constructing 13th century Welsh names.

Pengam: documented from Jones, 13th century Welsh nicknames, and from Jones, Snapshot of a Cantref: the names and naming practices in a Mawddwy Court Roll of 1415-16.

Comment from Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn:

One would expect, based on overall patterns, for descriptive nicknames beginning in "pen-" to lenite when modifying a feminine given name. While my database doesn't happen to have any examples of women bearing "Pen-X" bynames, Morgan & Morgan's "Welsh Surnames" has some examples, in some cases post-period, that do show this lenition. E.g., (p. 174ff under "Pen- compounds") Falan bengoch (18th c.), Mary Bengough (1714), Elen vz Thom's als Bengam (1582) (this sort of entry general indicates that the alias is an alternate byname for the person indicated, not that it attaches to the person named in the patronym).


Conrad Jäger von Thüringen -- New Device

Vert, a wolverine rampant to sinister maintaining a sword, on a chief argent, three crosses formy sable.
Device returned for administrative reasons. The argent portions of the device were colored with silver – that is, they are gray, not white. Argent portions of armorial submissions should be merely uncolored areas of white paper.

No conflicts found.

See Submissions for name.

Cynehild Cynesigesdohtor –- New Badge

(Fieldless) A bear rampant argent, maintaining a mullet azure.
Conflict with Lachlan Bradoc (8/86 West) Per pale gules and vert, a bear rampant guardant argent. Only one CD, for the absence of a field.

See Submissions for name change.

Lleucu Bengam –- New Device

Purpure, chapé ploye, a wavy vine fesswise argent and on a chief dovetailed sable, a wavy vine argent.
Device returned for redrawing: Chape should not reach below the fess line if there is a charge in base, and chape should issue from the base of the chief.

No conflicts found.

See Submissions for name.

Rys Kynith – New Name & New Device

Gyronny vert and sable, a three-headed, snake-tailed dog passant contourney argent.
Submitted as Rhys Kynith, changed based on Tangwystl’s advice – submitter does allow minor changes.

Rhys: http://www.heatherrosejones.com/names/welsh/simple16thpembroke.html

Kynith: http://www.heatherrosejones.com/names/welsh/simple13thmerioneth.html

Returned for conflict with the sound of the registered name Rhys ap Cynam. The only difference in sound is in the unstressed syllables with unstressed “a” and “i” respectively. This is insufficient difference based on current standards.

Further commentary on the name:

Note that the listing of Rhys in this article is the entry heading, not a form actually found in the original document. (The spellings found in the source are: Rees, Res, Rese, Rice, Rise, Ryce.) Spellings involving initial "Rh-" are actually quite rare in period documents, although not entirely unheard of. Unfortunately, the examples of initial "Rh-" in my database are from two documents with heavy (but silent) normalization of spelling, and I'd hesitate to use them as documentation. The modern convention of using "Rh-" was only beginning to be experimented with by the 16th century. A typical example might be the early 16th c. LW 5276D manuscript (which contains the earliest surviving text of the legend of Taliesin) where we find 14 examples of the spelling "rh-" contrasted with 69 examples of the spelling "hr-" (often alternating in the same word). Another experimental spelling for this sound in initial position was "rr-", which I've found examples of in the 15th century.

But in general the unlenited and lenited forms of initial R were not distinguished in spelling in medieval Welsh, and were only beginning to be distinguished occasionally in early modern Welsh.

The closest similar spelling found in sources close to that cited for the byname would be Rys, as in:
Rys vichan
Adaf ab Rys
both from 1292 (Jones, Francis. "The Subsidy of 1292", Bulletin of the Board of Celtic Studies 13:210-230. )

Device returned because you cannot register divided fields of two colors unless they are of only two pieces or are quarterly or per saltire. The device also conflicts with the registered device for Lynn of Dragonsmark (2/94, Middle) Quarterly vert and gules, a wolf passant contourney ululant argent, with only one CD for the changes to the field.


Bahlow, Hans. Deutschland Geographiche Namenwelt.

Brechenmacher, Josef Karlmann. Etymologisches Wörterbuch der Deutschen Familiennamen.

The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia. on Fact Monster.: Pearson Education, publishing as Fact Monster. 2007. Thuringia. Available at: Kynith: http://factmonster.com/ce6/world/A0848648.html.

Jones, Heather Rose (Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn). 1996. A simple guide to constructing 13th century Welsh names. Available at: http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/welsh13.html.

Jones, Heather Rose. 1997. 13th century Welsh nicknames. Available at: http://www.anglesey.org/articles/welshnicknames.htm.

Jones, Heather Rose. 2001. Snapshot of a Cantref: The names and naming practices in a Mawddwy Court Roll of 1415-16. Available at: http://www.heatherrosejones.com/names/welsh/mawddwy1415/html. Morgan, T.J., and Prys Morgan. Welsh Surnames.

O'Brien, Kathleen M. (Mari Elspeth nic Bryan). Index of names in Irish Annals. Version 2.0. Available at: http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/DescriptiveBynames/anFhasaigh.shtml.

O'Brien, Kathleen M. (Mari Elspeth nic Bryan). Index of names in Irish Annals. Version 2.4. Available at: http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Maculine/Faelan.shtml.

Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England Database Project. 2005. On-line database. Available at: http://www.pase.ac.uk/. The following persons assert their moral right to be recognised as author and editor of aspects of this work: Janet L. Nelson, Simon Keynes, David Pelteret, Francesca Tinti, Alex Burghart. Copyright of the publication system software is vested in King's College London. The following assert their moral right to be recognised as author and designer of aspects of the computer system on which this publication is based: Zaneta Au, John Bradley, Arianna Ciula, Artemis Papakostouli, Harold Short, Paul Spence, Paul Vetch, Hafed Walda.

Socin, Adolf. Mittelhochdeutsches Namenbuch.

Uckelmann, Sara L. 2005, 2006. German names from Rottweil, Baden-Württemberg, 1441. Available at: http://ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/german/rottweil1441.html.

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