Minutes of the March, 2008 Heralds Meeting

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The meeting was held on Sunday, 9 March 2008, at the Holiday Inn Northeast in Sacramento, CA. The meeting started at 12:05 pm and ended at 1:05 pm. In attendance at this meeting were: Eilis O'Boirne, Vesper; Owen ap Morgan, Latimer; Na'arah bat Avraham, Banner; Astrið of Swansvale, Brachet; Moira O'Connor, Greencloak; Walraven von Nijmegen, Exchequer for College; Wilhelm von Homburg, Baldric/Sable Swan; Isabel de la Hay, Stellanordica; Edith de Laufare, Nebuly Pursuivant; Emma FitzWilliam, Acting Silver Gull Pursuivant; Joseph de Palmyra, Acting Glura Fjiord Pursuivant; Frederick of Holland and Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym, Pursuivants; Matilda FitzRichard, and Elysant atten Oke, Pursuivants Extraordinary; Elsa Saxenkammer, marker diva; Flidais ni Eitigen, guest; and Vigdís vestfirzka, Matins. We also enjoyed the attendance of many out-kingdom heralds: Christopher Thomas, Black Lion (AnTir); Elizabeth Turner de Carlisle, Löwenmähne (AnTir); Ciaran Cluana Ferta, Argent Scroll (AnTir); Jared Alexandre Blaydeaux, Seraph (Caid); Sebastian zem Sterne, Art Herald Extraordinary (AnTir); John Ap Griffin (Caid); Teceangl Bach, PaL (AnTir); Meadhbha inghean Bhrain Mhuilleoir, Dragon's Mist Puruivant (AnTir); and Reinholdt V.Trollenhagen, Compass (Northshield)

The schedule for meetings in 2008 is April 13, May 18, June 8, August 16 (Saturday!), September 21, October 26 and November 16. Meetings start at noon.

In general, meetings will be held at Eilis’ house (2322 Russell Street, Berkeley CA 94705; 510-486-0633 -- call for directions). “Road show” meetings will be announced well in advance.

Anyone who is bringing a walk-in submission should contact Matins in advance, no later than the Monday before the meeting. This is especially important if the submitter has previous submissions, since the files are stored in a remote location. If you are bringing the paperwork for a submission to a meeting, please plan to arrive by 11:00 am to allow the file to be set up.

We are researching some of the name submissions beforehand through an email list, wknames@yahoogroups.com. This list is open by request to heralds in the West Kingdom who are interested in onomastic (name) research. To join the list, please subscribe at wknames-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.




Na'arah Banner: Visiting Baronies and having positive responses from the Heralds & Coronets. They are enjoying the input and help. Getting videos and notes from branches. Not yet started on the ceremonies, but is in the works. Crown is in a couple weeks, will need volunteers for Courts.

Astrith Brachet: Not much happened last month. Planning on skipping a week this coming month, due to mundane obligations. Happens Wednesdays at 7 pm. We expect an increase in submissions to comment on, due to Estrella War submissions. If you're interested in doing commentary, please come help. You would not be expected to show up every week, but it would be nice.

Cynagua group is meeting regularly. We've had up to 5 people show up, would love more.

Moira Greencloak: March Crown is coming up. There are 2 tournaments happening. Crown & a rapier championship on Sunday. Gwenyfaer will be doing a training session on Saturday morning. Herald's meeting will be at 9 am.

Owen Latimer: Nothing to report. Crown is coming.

Wilhelm Baldric: Just had a really stupendous inter-kingdom event! The Wack-Vac was very successful. There was a total of 5 Kingdoms represented, and had over 40 attendees. Thank you to all of the volunteers and guest instructors. We are seriously considering doing another one in 2010. He will accept all comments and suggestions and feedback.

Hirsch Golem: No report

Gillian Seawolf: Nothing to report.

Wilhelm Sable Swan: Office will turn over to Elysant at July Investiture. May Coronet will be at Woodland, which means ERDOS. Be prepared. The Coronet list will be held on Sunday.

Isabel Stellanordica: All is well. We have many heralds, yeah!

Guido herald: La Prova Dura is coming up April 18-20. We will REALLY need heralds. See Wilhelm to volunteer.

Compline Herald would like to thank the West Kingdom for hosting the WackVac, and look forward to the future one. We are considering hosting one ourselves.


From Matins Herald: Please note that the "line drawing" requirement for device submissions does NOT mean a b/w photocopy of the color form.

For name submissions, we need two copies of all name forms and all documentation source printouts and/or photocopies. For device and badge submissions, we need four colored copies plus an uncolored line outline. Please use colored felt tip markers. Please do not use colored pencil, pastel colors, crayons, color printers or color copiers. The artist's signature is required, but the submitter's signature is not required. If you are using restricted or non-standard elements or any other supplemental matters, we need two copies of your supplemental paperwork.

Please make sure that all submitters print their e-mail addresses clearly. A single mistaken letter makes the e-mail address useless.

The 2008 Known World Heraldic and Scribes Symposium will be held in the Kingdom of Drachenwald (London, England) on September 5-7, 2008, which is Labor Day weekend.


SUBMISSION REQUIREMENTS: SUBMISSION REQUIREMENTS: Beginning with the January 2008 meeting, submission fees are $6 per name, $6 per device, $6 per badge - and a name and device registered at the same time will cost $10 instead of $12. There is no fee for resubmission of a returned item. Submissions require 2 copies of the name packet (form and documentation), 3 colored copies and 1 line drawing of the full size device form, and 3 colored copies and 1 line drawing of the badge form, as applicable. Required documentation includes printouts of any web pages cited – including reports from the Academy of Saint Gabriel – as well as copies of the title page and cited pages from any books that are not standard heraldic references. The submission forms for the West Kingdom College are now available from Matins or the Kingdom consultation table or by following this link: http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Register.htm#Forms. Completed forms should be sent to Matins Herald (c/o Sandstedt / PO Box 1346 / Sparks NV 89432-1346).

MAILING LIST: The West Kingdom College of Heralds has a mailing list for internal communication. Any herald is welcome to join by request. To join the list, please subscribe at wkheralds-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.

ELECTRONIC RESOURCES: Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at http://www.sca.org/heraldry, including the Laurel home page, the on-line Armorial and Ordinary (with search capabilities) and The Academy of St. Gabriel (an onomastic and heraldic consultation service). The West Kingdom Heraldry site and the West Kingdom Awards List can be accessed through the West Kingdom site, http://www.westkingdom.org. Heraldic queries may also be addressed to Eilis and Vigdís at heralds@westkingdom.org -- answers may take a few days.

West Kingdom College of Heralds Minutes are published on the web. They may be read at or printed from the heralds' website at http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Minutes.htm. There is a colored version and a printer-friendly black and white version available.

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. Please consider attending – you do not have to be able to attend every week. They are a fast way to learn how the Rules of Submission work and how to research armory. The Brachet meetings are in Berkeley on Wednesday nights. If you are interested, contact the Brachet Herald, Astrith of Swansvale (Gretchen Lebednik) at or Eilis at 510-486-0633.

A training and commenting meeting is being held in Cynagua to promote and encourage interest in book heraldry and raise the level of general heraldic knowledge along the eastern side of the kingdom. The meetings are held on the second and fourth Mondays of each month at 7:00 pm at 4317 Alderwood Way, Sacramento, CA 95864. Call Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym for more information, (916) 323-4268 or email her, ginni.morgan@doj.ca.gov.


The LoAR for October 2007 was published in February 2007. The cover letters, acceptances and returns for the past can be found at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/. If you are interested in responding to some of the calls for commentary put out by Lady Laurel, please be sure to visit the site.

WEST - Acceptances - October 2007
(June 2007 LoI)

Anne FitzRichard. Name and device. Per chevron inverted azure and argent, a cat couchant argent and three roses proper.

Ceara MacKeagan. Name.
Submitted as Ceara MacEgan, the byname was documented as a header form in MacLysaght, Irish Surnames. This work provides explicitly modern forms and is no longer acceptable as sole documentation for a name. MacLysaght, s.n. Egan, notes that mac Aodhagháin is the modern Gaelic form of this name. Woulfe, Irish Names and Surnames, s.n. mac Aodhagháin, notes the late 16th/early 17th C Anglicization M'Keagan. By precedent, the scribal abbreviation M' is expanded to Mac in first-generation patronymic bynames. We have changed the name to Ceara MacKeagan in order to register it.

This name mixes Early Modern Irish Gaelic and Anglicized Irish. This is one step from period practice.

Isabeau Marguerite Deschamps. Device. Per bend argent and azure, three gouttes de sang in bend and a trillium inverted argent charged with a torteau.

Juan Santiago. Badge. (Fieldless) A brown falcon striking, wings displayed proper maintaining in its claws a rapier bendwise inverted argent.
The sword was tinctured in a light shade of grey. While this isn't recommended for argent charges - for reasons which the color scan on OSCAR made clear - it is currently permitted.

Kerry RanAurora. Reblazon of device. Per fess Or and azure, atop a thimble argent a frog sejant affronty gules.
Registered in June 1975 with the blazon Per fess Or and azure, a frog gules orbed argent pupilled sable, on a thimble argent, that blazon would have made the frog a tertiary on the thimble. Instead, the thimble is the primary charge, centered on the field, with the smaller frog perched atop it. The frog's posture was also omitted from the original blazon.

Leo Diogenes. Device. Argent, a lion sejant contourny gules crined and maintaining in his paw a hammer between three anvils reversed, on a chief embattled sable three bezants.
Although this has a complexity count of nine - five types of charge (lion, hammer, anvil, chief, roundel) and four tinctures (argent, sable, gules, Or) - its style is simple enough, and documentable to late period, that the rule of thumb for over complexity in RfS VIII.1.a can be waived in this case.

Markus Vorosi. Reblazon of device. Argent, a nude man dismembered gules.
When registered in September 1971 with the blazon Argent, a man dismembered gules, the fact that the man is nude was omitted from the blazon.

Padraig Mactyre. Name (see RETURNS for device).
This name mixes Irish Gaelic and Anglicized Scottish Gaelic; this is one step from period practice.

Rhys of Vakkerfjell. Name and device. Sable, a fess invected on the upper edge between two wolves combatant and a wolf passant Or.

Sárán mac Ímair. Device change. Argent, a glaive vert.
The submitter's previous device, Or, a pair of bat's wings, conjoined and displayed, sable within a bordure countercompony vert and argent, is released.

Zahra bint Talib. Reblazon of device. Sable, three pomegranates slipped and leaved Or, seeded gules.
When registered in February 1998 with the blazon Sable, three pomegranates Or, seeded gules, the slipping and leaving was omitted from the blazon. While pomegranates are frequently found slipped and leaved, that is not their default.

West - Returns - October 2007

Padraig Mactyre. Device. Checky argent and vert, a wolf rampant azure sustaining a spear gules.
This is returned for lack of identifiability of the charges. Although the checky field is technically neutral, we had a hard time identifying the wolf: many of the wolf's most important features were on a green portion of the field. Much harder to identify was the spear: drawn very slender, with an insignificant spear-head, and aligned exactly along one of the palar lines of the checky field, the spear was virtually indistinguishable. It needs to be redrawn much more boldly, as befits a co-primary or sustained charge. The spear has to be visible, and an undoubted co-primary or sustained charge, in order for this to avoid conflict with Caramanna Helmsmid, registered May 2007: Or ermined, a dog rampant azure.

Ruaidhrí Mac Diarmada. Device. Argent, a fess nowy azure charged with a plate.
Unfortunately, this device must be returned for administrative reasons. The documentation that the submitter provided for a fess nowy was neither summarized on the LoI nor forwarded to Laurel. Without the input of the College, we decline to rule on the acceptability of a fess nowy. We encourage him to resubmit this device and advise the West College of Heralds that his documentation should be properly summarized on the LoI and copies sent with the submissions packet.

We note that the example of the fess nowy posted on OSCAR was taken from Randall Holmes' Academy of Armory, a massive compendium of charges published in 1688. As it's beyond even our 1650 "grey period" for documentation, it doesn't seem to provide direct support for the charge. The single Society example of a fess nowy, in the device of Antonia Martín de Castilla (reblazoned elsewhere in this LoAR), was registered back in 1982, and without documentation; it cannot be cited as precedent.

In Service,

Vigdís vestfirzka
Matins Herald

SUBMISSONS – 9 March, XLII (2008)




Céline Angeli de Moneta     (Palo Alto, CA)     Return of Resubmission of Device to Laurel

Sable, four sword in cross joined at the pommel argent, a chief Or.
Submitter's name was registered August 2003.

The device was returned by Laurel on the 8/03 LoAR stating: The device conflicts with Balthazar Thornguard, Sable, a sword inverted argent, the blade enflamed proper. There is one CD for changing the number of swords. As noted in the LoAR of October 2001, concerning Balthazar Thornguard's device, "as drawn in Balthazar's arms, the flames are not significant enough to be worth difference."

This submission must be returned for several reasons: 1) It is on the wrong form. The proper form is dated 13 Feb 2007. 2) Not enough forms were included. There must be 3 color copies and one line drawing. Only one form was sent. 3) The chief is not large enough. It should be approximately 1/3 of the shield. Additionally, the chief would have to be submitted with a non-metalic yellow, as Laurel will not accept metalics. It is suggested to make the swords thicker and the hilts/pommel more prominent.

Colyn Jak Leslie     (Earngyld)     Return of Resubmission of Device to Kingdom
Ermine, a compass star elongated to base, sable.
Submitter's name was registered July 2007.

This conflicts with device of Melissande Aefensteorra Chevronelly vert and argent a mullet of eight points alternately straight and wavy sable. Also conflicts with the badge of Craig of the Glyn Gyronny gules and Or a compass star sable. Conflicts with the device of Almarek of the Dunedane Ermine a mullet of four points gyronny argent and purpure.

Dometrios the Just of Kežmarok     (Eskalya)     Return of New Name
Male - No major changes allowed

Dometrios was found in "Names of 14th-15th C. Thessalonian Lesser Aristocrats" by Andrea Hicks (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/maridonna/thessalonian.html). Demetrios Glabas [Komes?] dated to 1366 and Demetrios Hidromenos dated to 1421.

Kežmarok was found in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ke%C5%BEmarok) as a settlement dating back to the Upper Stone Age located in the Spiš region of estern Slovakia on the Poprad River. The full bit of relevant text from Wikipedia (at least today) is: "Settlement at Kezmarok dates back to the Upper Stone Age. In the 13th century the region contained a community of Saxons, a Slovak fishing village, a Hungarian border post and a Carpathian German settlement. Its Latin name was first mentioned in 1251 as Villa (Saxonum apud Ecclesiam) Sancte Elisabeth. In 1269 Kezmarok received its town charter. It also had the right to organize a cheese market (hence the German name Kesmark ("Käsemarkt" - "cheese market"). In 1433 the town was severely damaged by a Hussite raid. After 1440, the count of Spis had a seat in Kezmarok. In the 15th century (and then once more in 1655), Kezmarok became a free royal town."

This suggests that the German name of which Ke{zv}marok is a Slovak borrowing didn't appear until after 1269. Period citations of the Slovak version of the name is not available (even finding period citations of _any_ name for the place might be challenging).

This name must be returned because we cannot combine a Greek given name with a Slovak place name. The addition of an English byname, even as linguia Anglica, intensifies the mix-and-match effect.

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