Minutes of the March, 2005 Herald's Meeting

Click here for a Printer Friendly (Black and White) version
Minutes Page
Main Herald's Web Page

As the April meeting will occur during Passover, please do not bring any leavened bread to the meeting (donuts, sandwiches -- any bread with yeast) ...
If the documentation for a submission includes a website citation, it must include three copies of the printout of the site. Be aware that websites will change, and what you cite may not appear at a later date!!!


The meeting was held on Sunday, 6 March 2005, at the Rancho Cordova Public Library near Sacramento. The meeting started at 10:40 am and ended at 2:45 p.m. In attendance at this meeting were: Berengaria de Montfort of Carcassonne, Vesper; Frederick of Holland, Brachet; Astrid of Swansvale, Latimer; Eilis O’Boirne, Banner; Wilhelm von Homberg, Seawolf; Antonio Giordano da Sicilia, Sable Swan; Alail Horsefriend, Green Boot Pursuivant; Alison Gray of Owlwood, Acting Baldric Pursuivant; Edith de Laufare, Acting Pusuivant for Cloondara; Vigdis Vestfirzka, Acting Snowbound Pursuivant; Moira O’Connor, Acting Glora Fjord Pursuivant; Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym, Pursuivant at Large; Anneke Grove, PE and Deputy to Sable Swan; Edward of Guildford, PE; Catherine de Gray, cornet; and Kiriana Michaelson, Matins.

The upcoming meetings are: April 24, May 22, June 12, July 17, September 11, October 16, and November 20. There will be no meetings in August and December. PLEASE NOTE that several of these dates have been changed due to date conflicts.

The April and May meetings will be held at Kiriana’s -- 799 Hamann Drive, San Jose CA 95117. Directions are available on the heralds’ website. After those meetings, an assessment of where future meetings will be held will be made by Vesper and Matins and the location of future meetings will be announced.

Anyone who is bringing a walk-in submission should contact Matins in advance, no later than the Thursday before the meeting. This is especially important if the submitter has previous submissions, since the files are stored in a remote location. If you are bringing the paperwork for a submission to a meeting, please plan to arrive by 11:00 am to allow the file to be set up. Please no walk in submissions for the March meeting as that one is a road show.

We are researching some of the name submissions beforehand through an email list, wknames@mailsrv.dis.org. This list is open by request to heralds in the West Kingdom who are interested in onomastic (name) research. To join the list, please contact Felix MacAvady at ha.raschid@sinewave.com.

The Fall Collegium will be on November 19. Since the last few Collegia held in the Mists were in the Northern part of the Principality, we are looking for a new location in the Southern Mists -- although we can use the bank training center if no more desirable site is available.


SUBMISSION REQUIREMENTS: Submission fees are $8 per name, $8 per device, $8 per badge – and a name and device registered at the same time will cost $15 instead of $16. There is no fee for resubmission of a returned item. Submissions require 3 copies of the name form and documentation, 4 colored copies of the device form, and 3 colored copies of the badge form, as applicable. Required documentation includes printouts of any web pages cited – including reports from the Academy of Saint Gabriel – as well as copies of the title page and cited pages from any books that are not standard heraldic references. The submission forms for the West Kingdom College are now available from Matins or the Kingdom consultation table or by following the http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Register.htm#Forms. Completed forms should be sent to Matins at the College address.

MAILING LIST: The West Kingdom College of Heralds has a mailing list for internal communication. Any herald is welcome to join by request. The previous heralds list has been eliminated from the server it was on, so everyone will have to rejoin the list. To join the list, please contact Felix MacAvady at ha.raschid@sinewave.com.

ELECTRONIC RESOURCES: Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at http://www.sca.org/heraldry, including the Laurel home page, the on-line Armorial and Ordinary (with search capabilities) and The Academy of St. Gabriel (an onomastic and heraldic consultation service). The West Kingdom Heraldry site and the West Kingdom Awards List can be accessed through the West Kingdom site, http://www.westkingdom.org. Heraldic queries may also be addressed to Eilis at heralds@westkingdom.org -- answers may take a few days.

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. Please consider attending – you do not have to be able to attend every week. They are a fast way to learn how the Rules of Submission work and how to research armory. The Brachet meetings are in Berkeley on Wednesday nights. If you are interested, contact the Brachet Herald, Frederick of Holland (Fred Hollander) at 510-653-3652.

A training and commenting meeting is being held in Cynagua to promote and encourage interest in book heraldry and raise the level of general heraldic knowledge along the eastern side of the kingdom. The meetings are held on the second and fourth Mondays of each month at 7:00 pm at the home of Harold von Rheinfelden (Kevin Ellingson), 5390 Jacinto Avenue, Sacramento, CA 95823 – directions are in the May 2004 Minutes. Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym will run the meetings. You can reach her via phone: (916) 323-4268 or email: ginni.morgan@doj.ca.gov.

West Kingdom College of Heralds Minutes are published on the web. They may be read at or printed from the heralds’ website at http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Minutes.htm. There is a colored version and a printer-friendly black and white version available.

A Pictorial Dictionary of Heraldry as Used in the Society for Creative Anachronism (by Bruce Draconarius of Mistholme and Akagawa Yoshio) is available by sending $15 to Bruce Miller, 1711 Tenth Street, Manhattan Beach, CA 90266, (310) 379-1321.

The LoAR for September 2004, which covered our May 2004 meeting, and the LoAR for October 2004, which covered our June 2004 meeting, were published in early March 2005. The cover letters, acceptances and returns for the past can be found at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/. If you are interested in responding to some of the calls for commentary put out by Lord Laurel, please be sure to visit the site.

The following Western submissions have been registered by the College of Arms on the September LoAR:

Abd al-Rahman de Javier. Name.

Submitted as Abd al-Rahman al-Javier, the submitter requested authenticity for Moorish Spain. The byname al-Javier combines Arabic and Spanish in a single name phrase in violation of RfS III.1.a, Linguistic Consistency. Although the castle Xavier or Javier is found in Moorish Spain, no documentation was provided and none found showing how the Moors referred to this place. Therefore, we have changed the locative to a fully Spanish form, giving Abd al-Rahman de Javier. This name mixes Arabic and Spanish in a single name; this is one step from period practice.

Adísa hrafn Úlfsdóttir. Name and device. Gules, on a saltire Or between four mullets pierced argent, a raven sable.

Submitted as Ádísa Hrefna Úlfsdóttir, the submitter allowed only minor changes. Hrefna is a feminine given name derived from the word hrafn. Geirr Bassi shows the prepended nickname Hrafn-, meaning raven, and lists other bird names as non-prepended bynames, including hegri "heron", hani "rooster", assa "eagle", and masi "seagull". He also lists kraka and kraku- as both a non-prepended and a prepended byname meaning "crow." Given these citations, we are giving the submitter the benefit of the doubt that hrafn can be used as a non-prepended byname. However, when non-prepended Old Norse bynames are transcribed, they are written in all lowercase. We have, therefore, changed this name to Adísa hrafn Úlfsdóttir to reflect this. Hrafn-Adísa Úlfsdóttir would be an attested way to use this byname; however, changing to this form would be a major change, which the submitter will not allow.

Caitríona inghean ui Chionaodha. Name and device. Per fess azure and vert, on a fess wavy argent, a feather reversed sable.

The documentation for this name was not adequately summarized on the LoI. The summarization of both the given name and the byname was simply that the name appeared in a particular source; no dates were include and no information about whether the name was a header form or a dated citation. Such inadequate summarizations may be sufficient reason to return a name. For more information on properly summarizing documentation, please see this month's cover letter.

Long skinny charges, when placed on stripes (such as fesses, chiefs and bends) change their orientation to follow the stripe without need to be blazoned as such. However, the part that would normally be to chief should rotate to be to dexter, so this feather is reversed.

Please advise the submitter to draw the wavy a bit more boldly.

Elisabeth René de Champagne. Device. Azure, on a pile wavy between two garbs Or, in pale three caltrops gules.

Mikha'il al-Tayyib ibn Khalid ibn Ahmad al-Gharnatii. Device. Argent, a panther statant sable incensed gules, in chief three mullets of eight points sable.

Susan of Bellatrix. Device. Azure, a sheaf of three arum lilies argent slipped and leaved Or, a double tressure argent.

West, Kingdom of the. Heraldic title Green Boot Herald.

No documentation was included for this submission. This in itself is reason for return. Submissions that cannot be documented should either be returned in Kingdom or should include information about why no documentation was provided. Without either documentation or an explanation for the lack of documentation, we should return such names. Fortunately, the College of Arms graciously provided documentation for this title. Therefore, we will not return this heraldic title.

The following Western submissions have been returned for further work on the September LoAR:

West, Kingdom of. Heraldic title Money Bag Herald.

No documentation was included for this submission. This in itself is sufficient reason for return.

The College provided documentation for the term money bag; the OED dates it to the late 16th C. However, while the term Money Bag is used to describe a particular form of pouch in SCA heraldry, no evidence was found that this term was ever so used in period heraldry. Furthermore, no documentation was submitted and none found that the term money bag was used in period to describe an object visually distinct from the charge known as a pouch or purse. Without such documentation, Money Bag cannot be registered as a heraldic title.

The following Western submissions have been registered by the College of Arms on the October LoAR:

Christopher Starling. Name.

Etain ingen an Aba. Name and device. Vert, a chalice within an annulet between three crescents argent.

Gareth the Faithful. Name and device. Per pale azure and vert, a dragon passant to sinister, on a chief argent, a rapier reversed gules.

Jillian Saint André. Device. Per pale gules and Or, three suns in splendor within a bordure rayonny counterchanged.

Katerina Evstokh'eva. Name and device. Argent, three chevronels braced azure, in chief a natural seahorse vert.

Submitted as Tama Katerina Evstokh'eva, the name Tama is not formed according to documented Russian practice. Nebuly explains:
The addition of an -a will rarely create a feminized form in Slavic languages, and more often creates a masculine diminutive of a given name, e.g. Antip/Antipa, Dorosh/Dorosha (Dorofei), Kharko/Kharka (Khariton). For each pair of names, both forms are listed as masculine by Wickenden. I was able to pull all three of these example pairs from Wickenden in less than a minute by opening to random pages, which should show evidence that this pattern is common.

Adding an -a is only a general pattern of feminization in Slavic names in certain special cases where the root name is a standard old dithematic name, like Borislav, Borimir, Svetislav, Svetimir, etc. Of the three examples presented in the LoI, only one is of this type (Rostislav/Rostislava), and is legitimately a feminization. However, since the submission uses the proposed masculine root Tam, which is not a dithematic name in Russian, such examples do not apply toward justifying this submission. They represent a different specialized case.

We have, therefore, registered this name as Katerina Evstokh'eva.

Please advise the submitter to draw the chevronels higher.

Meadhbh inghean mhic Fhirléighinn. Name.

Raven de Okewude. Name change from holding name Raven of the West.

The following Western submissions have been returned for further work on the October LoAR:

Mari Alexander. Badge. Sable, four lozenges in cross Or.

This conflicts with Heinrich von Stuttgart: Per bend azure and checky Or and azure, a cross of four lozenges Or. There is one CD for changing the field, but nothing for placement of the charges on the field since the move of Heinrich's charge(s) is forced by the field. Neither is there a CD for the minor change in arrangement of the lozenges:
[Four fleurs-de-lys conjoined in cross bases to center] Conflict with Katlin von Kappel, Per saltire sable and gules, four fleurs-de-lys bases to center Or. There is one CD for fieldlessness. The four fleurs-de-lys in Katlin's device are placed by default into the four sections of the per saltire field, which arranges the fleurs-de-lys in cross. The two groups of fleurs-de-lys are arranged identically except for the conjoining. We do not give difference for conjoining the charges, although it is necessary to specify the conjoining in the blazon. [Otelia d'Alsace, 08/02, R-Æthelmearc]
The same interpretation applies to lozenges as it does to fleurs-de-lys. Black Stag notes that a different result might be obtained if documentation had been supplied showing a cross of four lozenges as having an independent identity in period armory from four lozenges in cross, but none was supplied, and it does not appear to have had such an independent identity in period. Thus the small difference in the arrangement is not significant.

In Service,

Matins Herald

SUBMISSONS – 6 March xxxix (2005)


Aislinn Alsop     (Westermark)     Name Resubmission to Kingdom; New Device

Argent, a cross of four lozenges gules within a bordure indented sable.
The spelling of the first name originally submitted, Aislin could not be documented. Aislinn appears in O’Corrain and Maguire on p.21, but it is not clear from the literature that the name was used in period. However, the name was determined by Laurel to be SCA compatible in 08/00 in connection with the Atlantian submission, Aislinn ingen Mhaoilbhridgde. Alsop-en-le-Dale is listed as a header spelling in Ekwall, p.7 – the DB spelling is Elleshop and Aleshop is cited to 1241. Reaney & Wilson at Allsep gives Alsope in 1279. The submittor will not accept major changes to her name and desires a female name. Sound is most important to her, followed by language/culture.

Her original design, Argent, a cross of four lozenges within a bordure indented sable, is too similar to the device of Maurya Etain Sableswan, Argent, a cross of four ermine spots within a bordure sable. There is one CD for the change of the line of division of the bordure, but too much variation in the method of drawing ermine spots to assure adequate visual difference.

Alienor Fitzhenry     (Eskalya)     Device Resubmission to Kingdom

Vert, two bendlets sinister wavy and in base three dogwood flowers in bend argent.

Elisa bat Avraham     (Selveirgard)     New Name and Device

Argent, a dog’s pawprint sable within a bordure indented purpure.
Elisa is dated to 1362 as a Jewish name in Julie Stampnitzky’s Jewish Women’s Names in Navarre (http://www.yucs.org/~jules/names/navarra.html). Avraham is given in Julie Stampnitzky’s Names of Jewish Men, 6th to 11th Centuries (http://www.yucs.org/~jules/names/sixth.html). In addition, the compiler for (http://www.yucs.org/~jules/names/masc/avraham.html) gives, among others, Avraham as part of Avraham ben R[eb] Meir (Germany;12th -- 13th c.) and Shmuel b[en] Rabbi Avraham haLevi (Germany; 13th c.)

The submittor will not accept major changes to her name. Having a Hebrew/Aramaic name is most important to her.

Elizabeth Anne deGresse     (Eskalya)     New Name and Device

Or, a chevron purpure ermined argent between two compass stars elongated to base vert and a thistle proper.
Elizabeth is on p. 99-100 of Withycombe, dated in this spelling to 1205. Anne is on p. 25-26 of Withycombe; this spelling is cited as coming into used beginning in the 14th Century, partly owing to the influence of Anne of Bohemia, wife of Richard II. Gresse is a place name mentioned by William of Tyre in Historia rerum in partibus transmarinis gestarum, found on the next to last line of paragraph 480, (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html). This is the form in the original French, written in the 12th Century. A translation is provided at http://dictionary.reference.com/translate/text.html. The name was submitted with “De”; the proper connective is “de”, which is her first allowed alternate. The submittor desires a name that is historically a predecessor of the name Gresham.

Jacob von Wald     (Silver Desert)     New Name, see Returns for Device and Badge
Jacob is on p.169 of Withycombe; this spelling is documented to 1450 in a citation of a saint’s name. von Wald is a German locative meaning “from the wood”; Bahlow (p.589) at Wald(e) gives vorm Walde dated to 1474. Brechenmacher (p.735 at Wald) gives the same name as vorm Wald.

The submittor desires a masculine German name from the 11th to 13th Century.

Luther von Staufen     (Vakkerfjell)     New Name and Device

Azure, on a pall Or, a castle sable, portaled and illumed argent, surrounded by three crosses formy upright sable.
Luther appears in Talan Gwynek’s Medieval German Given Names from Silesia, http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/bahlow_v.htm. The connective would properly be lower-case, so we have changed it. Staufen is cited as the origin city of a person with a byname of Stauffer from 1402 in Bahlow, p. 487. Staufenberg appears on page 658 of Brechenmacher as a header spelling.

The submittor wishes a masculine German name. He gives as alternates to von Staufen, von Weissenburg, von Bayern and von Augsburg.

Marcos da Bragança     (Westermark)     Name and Device Resubmission to Kingdom, See Returns for Badge Resubmission

Gurges gules and Or, two arrows in pale fesswise reversed azure.
Marcos is found at http://www.wllipsis.cx/~liana/names/lisbon1565.html in Aryanhwy merch Catmael’s Portugese Names from Lisbon, dated to 1565. Bragança is found at http://www.Portugal-info.net/transmontana/braganca.htm, which lists the town, but does not directly date the spelling. The spelling appears on p. 137 of Johannes Blaeu’s The Grand Atlas of the 17th-Century World, (New York: Rizzoli International Publications, partial reprint 1991). This volume contains a map by Blaeu of “Portugallia et Algarbia” dated to 1635. Blaeu credits as the source for his map an earlier map dated 1560 by Fernao Alvares, a Portuguese map maker. While we would normally include a copy of this map with our submission package, Walraven reports that the book is too big to fit on the photocopier, but that he will verify this information in a Letter of Comment. We will therefore use this documentation to support this submission.

The submittor will not accept major changes to his name. He desires a masculine name.

Vera Veshniakova     (Champclair)     New Name; see below for Device and Badge
Vera is found at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/paul/va.html in Paul Goldschmidt’s Dictionary of Period Russian Names dated to 1356. Veshniakova is a patronymic form from the given name Veshniak, listed in the same source as dated to 1410.


Aislinn Alsop     (Westermark)     New Badge Returned

Fieldless, a cross of four lozenges gules.
Her first submission, Fieldless, a cross of four lozenges sable, was too similar to the badge registered to Darya Kazakova: Fieldless, a cross of four ermine spots conjoined sable. This is her first alternate, which is too similar to the device of Damon Kirby: Argent vetu gules, four lozenges in cross gules.

Jacob von Wald     (Silver Desert)     New Device Returned

Vert, a cross formy argent.
This is too similar to badge of the Order of Dannebrog: (Fieldless) A cross formy argent, fimbriated gules and to the device of Seth Williamson of Exeter: Lozengy purpure and Or, a cross formy fitchy argent. His first alternate, Argent, a cross formy vert, is too similar to the device of Dorothea of Caer Myrddin: Argent, a cross patty sable.

Jacob von Wald     (Silver Desert)     New Badge Returned

Vert, a cross formy argent.
This submission is identical to the device submission set forth above and therefore has the same conflicts. In addition, a device and a badge may NOT be identical, so if there were no conflicts, we would send on the device submission and return this for failure to contain any difference from the device.

Lachlann of St. Andrews     (Winter’s Gate)     New Name and Device Returned

Azure, on a saltire between four thistles argent, a lion gules.
No check was received in connection with this submission. We also had a problem in that the name submission forms say Lachlann of St. Andrews, but the device submission forms say Lachlann St. Andrews. While we are always saddened by administrative returns, this submission has other issues which compel us to return it and seek guidance from the submittor, who hopefully can inform us of the desired form of this name based on the comments below. (Matins’ thanks go to Walraven and Effric for their extensive research for this name!)

Lachlann is a Gaelic masculine given name used in the 16th c. according to the Academy of St. Gabriel in Report 965 (http://www.s-gabriel.org/965). Black gives the name Lachlan under the header MacLachlan dated to 1555. St. Andrews is cited by the submittor as a Scottish city existing from 1140.

The submittor states that he wants an authentic name for 12th-15th Century Scotland. However, a Scottish name of that time frame would seldom use a location. Scottish names at that time tended far more towards patronymics and family affiliations Generally we would see place names only if one family had major holdings in different locations in which case the family name would be followed by the “of . . .” only to distinguish different branches of the family.

Further, in seeking an authentic name, the mixture of the elements works against us. Lachlann is a Gaelic name not generally adopted among non-Gael Scots (unlike Donald and Duncan) while of St. Andrews is in English and would only be used by non-Gaels. Effric points out that an authentic name would either be all Gaelic or all Scots/English.

In addition, St., was a scribal notation not generally used as an actual name element. While Black at the listing for St. Martin gives one Magister Alexander de St. Martin as a prominent member of the chapter of St. Andrews in the beginning of the 13th Century on p.708, we cannot know if this was a scribal abbreviation and we do not know if this is a translation on the spelling of the town since the original document may have been written in Latin and Black may be citing a translation.

We then have difficulty with the spelling of Saint Andrews which appears to be a modern spelling. Effric suggests several documentable alternates, including Sanct Androws dated to 1375, Saynt Androus dated to 1389, and Sanctandris dated to 1510. Effric suggests that a more period name might be Lachlan of Saynt Androws. Greater authenticity can be reached by putting the name in Latin, e.g. Lachlanus Sancti Andree or Lachlanus de Sancti Andree.

Without a name submission, we cannot send on the device submission, which did appear to be free of conflict.

Marcos da Bragança     (Westermark)     Badge Resubmission to Kingdom Returned

(Fieldless) In saltire five gouttes d’Or.
The badge is not permissible – fieldless badges must have all their parts connected.

His alternate, adding a field, is not specific enough, and would be in conflict with the badge of the Order of the Dragon’s Blood: Azure goutty d’Or.

Ruarc O Faolán     (Danegeld Tor)     Device Resubmission to Kingdom Returned

Sable, a fox’s mask argent, on a bordure wavy argent, an "orle" of oak leaves (oriented in various directions) vert.
This drawing is the same as his original submission, with the same stylistic problems. The submittor seems to have believed that the problem with the original submission was with the blazon (the word description), not the emblazon, (the picture). The College of Arms registers the picture and not the words. The blazon exists only to allow those reading it to reliably recreate the picture. The problem with this device is that the oak leaves are not drawn as oak leaves and they are oriented in all different directions. This makes it impossible to blazon so that it will always be drawn in a substantially similar manner, but it is the picture that needs to be fixed.

Oak leaves would usually have only six or so lobes, not the dozen or more depicted here, and all of the leaves need to be going in the same direction, with their stems all either on the right or left or up or down, etc. The emblazon here is drawn with modern symmetry. The leaves on the right side of the shield have all their stems on the right side as you look at the leaves horizontally and the leaves on the left all have their stems on the left side as you look at them horizontally. One of these two groups needs to rotate around 180 degrees.

In addition, the wavy line of the bordure should be deeper in amplitude.

Vera Veshniakova     (Champclair)     New Device Returned

Gules, a roc volant maintaining an elephant, on a chief argent, three roses gules.
The device is too similar to that registered to Raven Clough: Sable, a hawk volant wings addorsed and on a chief argent, three roses gules.

Vera Veshniakova     (Champclair)     New Badge Returned

Gules, a roc volant maintaining an elephant argent.
The badge is too similar to the device of Tober Thorvald: Vert, an osprey volant proper.

Minutes Page
Main Herald's Web Page