Minutes of the November, 2003 Herald's Meeting

Click here for a Printer Friendly (Black and White) version
Minutes Page
Main Herald's Web Page


Remember that the Twelfth Night meeting will be at the hotel in San Jose!!!!

The lowered submission fees have been made permanent!!!


MINUTES OF THE MONTHLY MEETING – 16 November xxxvii (2003)

The meeting was held on Sunday, 16 November 2003, at the home of Eilis O’Boirne. The meeting started at 12:05 pm and ended at 1:30 pm. In attendance at this meeting were: Gaius M.L. Auklandus, Vesper; Frederick of Holland, Brachet; Astrid of Swansvale, Latimer; Berengaria de Montfort of Carcassone, Sable Swan; Hirsch von Henford, Golem Herald; Teleri Tawel, Pursuivant for Crosston and Exchequer for the College; Walraven von Nijmegen, Nebuly Pursuivant; Felix MacAvady, Pursuivant for Ste. Katherine’s; Maxen Dawel ap Morgan, Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym, and Harold von Rhinefelden, Pursuivants at Large; Neassa mhic Cathasaigh, Geoffrey le Dragon, Catherine de Gray, and Antonio Giordano da Sicilia, PEs at Large; Edith de Laufare, Emma FitzWilliam and Alison Gray of Owlwood, cornets; Aelia Apollina, guest; and Eilis O’Boirne, Matins.

The upcoming meetings are: January 4, February 8, March 7, April 11, May 9, and June 6. Meetings are generally held at the home of Eilis O’Boirne, 2322 Russell Street, Berkeley, CA 94705. Call for directions. Meetings start at noon. There is no meeting scheduled for December 2003.

The January meeting will be held at the Doubletree Hotel in San Jose – the Twelfth Night site. It will begin at 10 am. Check at the Heralds’ Table for the room number.

Anyone who is bringing a walk-in submission should contact Matins in advance. This is especially important if the submitter has previous submissions, since the files are stored in a remote location. If you are bringing a submission to a meeting, please plan to arrive by 11:00 am to allow the file to be set up.

We are researching some of the name submissions beforehand through an email list, wknames@mailsrv.dis.org. This list is open by request to heralds in the West Kingdom who are interested in onomastic (name) research. To join the list, please contact Felix MacAvady at ha.raschid@sinewave.com.

Since there was no interest expressed in voice instruction at the monthly meetings, it is being discontinued as a regular feature. If interest is expressed in the future, it will probably be offered again.


The Spring Heralds’ Collegium will be held March 6, the day before the March heralds’ meeting. We would like to hold it in Cynagua – if you know of a site, please contact Baldric.


SUBMISSION REQUIREMENTS: Submission fees are $8 per name, $8 per device, $8 per badge – and a name and device registered at the same time will cost $15 instead of $16. There is no fee for resubmission of a returned item. Submissions require 3 copies of the name form and documentation, 4 colored copies of the device form, and 3 colored copies of the badge form, as applicable. The submission forms for the West Kingdom College are now available from Matins or the Kingdom consultation table or by following the http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Register.htm#Forms. Completed forms should be sent to Matins at the College address.

MAILING LIST: The West Kingdom College of Heralds has a mailing list for internal communication. Any herald is welcome to join by request. To join the list, please contact Felix MacAvady at ha.raschid@sinewave.com.

ELECTRONIC RESOURCES: Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at http://www.sca.org/heraldry, including the Laurel home page, the on-line Armorial and Ordinary (with search capabilities) and The Academy of St. Gabriel (an onomastic and heraldic consultation service). The West Kingdom Heraldry site and the West Kingdom Awards List can be accessed through the West Kingdom site, http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Awards. Heraldic queries may also be addressed to Eilis at heralds@westkingdom.org -- answers may take a few days.

These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. Please consider attending – you do not have to be able to attend every week. They are a fast way to learn how the Rules of Submission work and how to research armory. The Brachet meetings are in Berkeley on Wednesday nights. If you are interested, contact the Brachet Herald, Frederick of Holland (Fred Hollander) at 510-653-3652.

Cynaguan commenting meetings are starting up in Golden Rivers at the home of Antonio Giordano da Sicilia. The schedule is the 2nd and 4th Mondays of each month, 6:30 - 9:30 pm.  (1024 42nd Street; house is at the intersection of 42nd and J Streets; third house from the SW corner -- on the west side of the street). For additional information, contact the Sable Swan Herald.

West Kingdom College of Heralds Minutes are published on the web. They may be read at or printed from the heralds’ website at http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Minutes.htm. There is a colored version and a printer-friendly black and white version available.

The latest edition of the Armorial and Ordinary, along with updates for the previous editions, are available from Free Trumpet Press West along with other useful heraldic publications. Write for a free price list. The address is Free Trumpet Press West, 1613 N. School St. Normal, IL 61761-1240.

A Pictorial Dictionary of Heraldry as Used in the Society for Creative Anachronism (by Bruce Draconarius of Mistholme and Akagawa Yoshio) is available by sending $15 to Bruce Miller, 1711 Tenth Street, Manhattan Beach, CA 90266, (310) 379-1321.

The LoAR for August has just been published. The cover letters, acceptances and returns for the past can be found at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/. If you are interested in responding to some of the calls for commentary put out by Lord Laurel, please be sure to visit the site.

These were the Western acceptances in the August LoAR (from our April meeting):

Aileth Gardiner. Device. Per pale azure and Or, a chevron between three bees counterchanged.

Aminah al-Zarqah. Name and device. Argent, a rose azure barbed and seeded proper and on a chief azure a salmon naiant embowed argent.

Listed on the LoI as Aminah al-Zarqua, the form and the documentation listed the byname as al-Zarqa. The submitted form of the given name and byname use different transliteration systems. When registering Arabic names, a single transliteration system must be used consistently throughout the name. Therefore, registerable forms of this name are Amina al-Zarqa and Aminah al-Zarqah. As the latter tranliteration retains the submitted spelling of the given name, we have used that form when registering this name.

Céline Angeli de Moneta. Name (see RETURNS for device).

Listed on the LoI as Céline di Moneta Angeli, this name was submitted as Céline de Moneta Angeli and changed at Kingdom to use the standard patronymic marker di rather than the Latin de.

Moneta is listed under Giacomoni, which is given as a diminutive of Giacomo in Fucilla (p. 42). However, the College was unable to find evidence that Moneta was used in period as a diminutive of a masculine given name. Instead, evidence was found of Moneta as a surname referring to a coin or money, which likely originated as an occupational byname. Juliana de Luna's article "Masculine Names from Thirteenth Century Pisa" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/pisa/pisa-bynames-alpha.html) lists the surname de Moneta. (The original source is in Latin.) lacking evidence that Moneta is a period diminutive of a masculine given name, it is not registerable in a patronymic byname such as di Moneta. In order to register this name, we have changed the byname to the documented occupational byname de Moneta and placed the family name before the occupational byname to follow period patterns.

Dietrich Lorenz Uhl. Name.

Listed on the LoI as Dietrich Lorenz Ulz, both the forms and the documentation showed the byname as Uhl. We have made this correction.

Isabelle Françoise de Sancerre. Name and device. Vert, a unicorn's head erased between acorns slipped and leaved in annulo argent.

Johanna Ludwiger von Hertesbergk. Name and device. Azure, in pale three bears passant argent.

Nice device!

Mór Dhána. Device. Ermine, on a lozenge azure a lacy knot Or.

Sabina le Sewester. Device. Party of six gules and argent, three spiders inverted argent.

The following items were returned for further work:

Céline Angeli de Moneta. Device. Sable, four swords in cross conjoined at the pommels argent.

The device conflicts with Balthazar Thornguard, Sable, a sword inverted argent, the blade enflamed proper. There is one CD for changing the number of swords. As noted in the LoAR of October 2001, concerning Balthazar Thornguard's device, "as drawn in Balthazar's arms, the flames are not significant enough to be worth difference."

Indirabai At-tar. Name and device. Vert, an elephant statant and on a chief embattled Or a quill pen fesswise nib to dexter vert.

The documentation provided for this name on the LoI was:
The Book of Indian Names by Raja Ram Mehotra is the source of the following information, none of which is dated: p.7 At-tar is a Kashmiri family name based on the Persian or Urdu equivalent of the traditional occupation of herbalist cum scent dealer. p.110 Indira is one of the personal names attached to the goddess Lakshmi. p.67 -bai is a female suffix attached to the given name among the Parsis.

This information does not support the use of -bai in period or that a women's name in period would have been taken from the name of goddess. Lacking such evidence, Indirabai is not registerable. Lacking evidence that Indira was used in period as a regular woman's name, it is not registerable.

The College found information regarding the submitted byname At-tar:

'attar is an Arabic word for "perfumer". It appears at least as early as the 13th Century in the name of a man we know only as ibn al-'Attar, who composed popular stories in the late 9th or early 10th Century. (Dodge, Fihrist of al-Nadim, vol. 2, p. 966) The transliteration of the submitted form looks "odd" to me; I suspect (without being able to prove it) that it is modern at best. [al-Jamal]

The cited <At-tar> is clearly derived from an Arabic occupational byname which can be written without diacritical marks as <al-'Attar> 'the perfume-maker." Arabic bynames were brought into Mughal India in late period, and so ought to be registerable within an Indian name context, with at most a weirdness. [Siren]

Lacking evidence that the form At-tar is a plausible period form, it is not registerable.

As the submitter allows no holding name, we must return her device as well.

In Service,

Eilis O'Boirne

SUBMISSONS – 16 November xxxvii (2003)


Sylvie la Chardonnière     (Prov. Mists)     New Name and Device

Ermine, on a pile inverted throughout azure, a sun Or.

Sylvie is found in a list of the Siegneurs de Bournonville as the name of the wife of Louis de Bournonville. She died in 1126 – see http://jarnou.free.fr/bourdet.htm and http://fjaunais.free.fr/h0bournon.htm -- copies are enclosed for Laurel. The byname is found in An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris at Franqueite la chardonnière.

Willeam of the Green Pants     (Vinhold)     Name and Device Resubmission to Kingdom

Per pale erminois and pean, on a pale vert, a skull transfixed by a sword inverted proper, handled of brown wood.

His original submission, under the name Aros de Vert Trews, was made in July 2003. The submitted name was Aros of the Green Pants. The submittor stated that Aros is a variant of Eros, the Greek god of love, and submitted several variants of the name (Aeros, Eros) as alternates, but provides no documentation for the variant forms or for Eros being used as a human name. We cannot find any supporting evidence for his preferred name. His final alternate for a given name is Willeam – a spelling found at http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/lowland16/menalpha.shtml. Since we cannot justify Aros (in any variant) as a given name, we will go with his final alternate. He submitted the variants of the given name with either de Vert Trews or of the Green Pants. There is some evidence of bynames referring to distinctive clothing -- Redhose, Sidskirte (wide skirt), Curtemanche (short sleeves) are all found in "Misplaced" Names in Reaney & Wilson (http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/misplacednamesbyname.htm). We will submit the byname phrase in English and ask for assistance with the most appropriate formation.

Ysabelle d’Angiers     (Far West)     Name and Device Resubmission to Kingdom

Azure, a key, wards to chief, between in fess two fleurs-de-lys Or.

Her first submission was in September 2003. Ysabelle is from Given Names from Brittany, 1384 – 1600 (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/latebreton.html). Angiers is a city in France; Reaney & Wilson (p.11 at Angers) gives Hugo de Angiers dated to 1207-8.


Joan the Harper     (Vinhold)     New Name and Device Returned

Per pale vert and purpure, on a chief indented argent, three harps vert.
No name forms were sent. Reaney and Wilson gives Richard le Fitz Joan dated 1327 at John; Reginald le Harper is dated to 1275 at Harper. We will recommend the documented surname.

The device appears free of conflict, but must be returned until we have name forms. We will advise her that the indented chief should be drawn more boldly.

Nia McGhill     (Vinhold)     New Name and Device Returned

Tierced per pall gules, Or, and sable, an “Irish wolf” maintaining a sword in its mouth argent, a wheel sable, and a harp Or.

Nia is cited by the submittor as “found under Irish names in the college of St. Cathrine” – we cannot document the spelling anywhere as a period female name. We have found a suggestion that Nia is a modern Irish name, but we cannot trace it to period. McGhill is an “old family name” that was “lost through marriage” – the submittor was not sure of the spelling. McLysaght (p.p.93) gives MacGill; the Gaelic form is Mac an Ghoill. Black (p.497) gives Macgeil (1231), M’Gile or M’Gill (1550), Makgill (1572). The name is being returned for lack of documentation of the given name.

The device is not registerable since the charge on the chief is unrecognizable and the arrangement is forbidden by the rules of submission.

Siobhan Medhbh O’Roarke     (Crosston)     Name Registered 10/83 Midrealm; New Household Name and Badge Returned

(Tinctureless) A cinquefoil pierced.

No forms were submitted for the desired name, House San Gra’al. Household names are normally not registered in the West; even if we did register them on a regular basis, House Holy Grail would not be acceptable. In addition, the Order of the Holy Grail is already protected as a non-SCA entity.

Tinctureless badges are no longer registerable according to the rules of submission. The badge will not be registereable in argent (York), gules (Lancaster), erminois (Garin de Gramercy), azure (Jonathan Crusadene Whitewolf), Or (Caid), ermine (Anna Ridley), sable (Aonghus Lochlainn of Loch Fyne), vert (Roger of York), or purple (Alyanora of Vinca). Many divided-color forms of the rose/cinquefoil are also registered.

Minutes Page
Main Herald's Web Page