Minutes of the October, 2001 Herald's Meeting

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MINUTES -October. AS XXXVI (2001)

The meeting was held on Sunday, October 7, 2001, at the home of Riocard mac Ronain, 7522 English Hills Road, Vacaville, CA. The meeting started at 12:00 noon and ended at 1:51 p.m. In attendance at this meeting were: Astrið of Swansvale, Latimer; Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn, Harpy; Teleri Tawel, Matins; Felix MacAvady, St. Katherines; Sabina le Sewester, this month's artist; Caiterina nic Sheamus, Champclair; Riocard mac Ronain, Champclair deputy; Hermineite la Cochonne; Edith of Swansdael; Owen ap Morgan; Magwyn de Scipilie; Tristan FitzAaron; Engenulf Torstiensen; Morgan Fredric Ward.


The upcoming meetings are: Nov.4, Dec.2, Jan.6, 2002, Feb.3, Mar. 10, Apr. 14, May 12, and June 9. These regular meetings are usually held at the home of Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn, Harpy Herald (Heather Rose Jones). Contact her if you need directions. Meetings start at noon.

In view of the light submissions, the College is considering meeting every two months instead of every month. Discussion on this suggestion is welcome on our e-mail list, wkheralds@transbay.net. The WKHeralds list is open by request to heralds in the West Kingdom. To join the list, please contact Matins.

ANYONE WITH WALK-IN SUBMISSIONS SHOULD CONTACT MATINS IN ADVANCE. This is especially important if the submitter has previous submissions, so I can make sure to bring the file.

Currently we are researching the names beforehand through an e-mail list, names@synergy.transbay.net. The Names list is open by request to heralds in the West Kingdom who are interested in research. To join the list, please contact Matins.

Please send all correspondence (submissions, minutes subscriptions, etc.) to the address at the top of this letter! Please do NOT send submissions or minutes requests to Vesper.


NEW SUBMISSION FORMS - The Laurel Sovereign of Arms has issued a standard set of submission forms for use by all kingdoms. Laurel has stated that these forms will be required for all submissions to the College of Arms. This requirement began in February, 1999. Therefore, unless there is an unexpected change in this policy, we are forced to return any submissions not using the new forms henceforth. The new forms are now available from Matins or the Kingdom consultation table.


Subscriptions that expire in October: none. Subscriptions that expire in November: none.

In light of the small number of existing subscriptions, the expense of copying and mailing, and the limitations of the current Matins, we are considering moving the Minutes to the Herald's web site for electronic publication. Hopefully this would allow us to reach a wider audience as well. However, such a move must currently wait until Teleri gets a scanner.


These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. Please consider attending. They are a fast way to learn how the Rules of Submission work and how to research armory. The Brachet meetings are in Berkeley on Wednesday nights. If you are interested, contact the Brachet Herald, Frederick of Holland (Fred Hollander) at (510) 653-3652.


Subscriptions to these minutes are available for $15 for one year from the College of Heralds at the address in the letterhead. Updates to the Armorial and Ordinary are available from Free Trumpet Press West along with other useful heraldic publications. Write for a free price list. The address is Free Trumpet Press West, 1613 N. School St. Normal, IL 61761-1240.

A Pictorial Dictionary of Heraldry as Used in the Society for Creative Anachronism (by Bruce Draconarius of Mistholme and Akagawa Yoshio) is available in the United States by sending $15 to Bruce Miller, 1711 Tenth Street, Manhattan Beach, CA 90266, (310) 379-1321.


Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at http://www.sca.org/heraldry, including West Kingdom submission forms, the Laurel home page, on-line armorial and ordinary search and The Academy of St. Gabriel (a heraldic consultation service).

CURRENT FEES & Requirements

There has been a request for the Minutes to include current submission requirements. Current submission fees are $10 per name, $10 per device, $10 per badge. There is no fee for resubmission. Submissions requires 3 copies of the name form and documentation, 4 coloured copies of the device form, and 3 colour copies of the badge form, as applicable.


Excerpts from the Letter of Acceptances and Returns, dated 2001, from Francios la Flamme, Laurel King of Arms.

None as yet.

In Service,

Teleri Tawel
Matins Pursuivant



Arthur Lacey     Badges Released

Argent, a goutte inverted Vert.
Per fess azure and vert, on a fess invected argent, four roundels sable.

These badges were registered per the May1992 LoAR.

Hermineite la Cochonne     [Champclair]      Resubmission to Kingdom of Device
Purpure a winged boar segreant argent, between three mullets Or.

Administrative note: Her name was accepted at the September 2001 WKCoH meeting. The device submitted at that time was returned for redrawing as it appeared to be a baby pig. The problem is corrected in this submission. Fees were paid at that time.

Oliver Tarney     [Borderwinds]      Resubmission to Kingdom of Name & Device
Azure, a winged shoe Or, on a chief invected argent an arrow fesswise azure.

Alternates (1) Oliver of Tarney, (2) Oliver of Tarn Flat
Gender: male

The submitter took the information provided from Tangwystyl's commentary at our August meeting and chose one of the names that we could justify.

<tarn> Under <tûorn> (i.e. <tain>), Smith, English Place Name Elements, notes it as a modifier: Tarn Beck (lake stream), Tarn Flat (lake flat). Smith also notes it as a primary element: Blea Tarn (dark pool), Blind Tarn (dark, hidden pool), and several <placename>+Tarn.
<-ey> When the <-sey> occurs in a placename, it comes from the Norse possessive <s>+<ey> ("island"), as in Swansey ("Svern's Island), etc.. Examples of <-ey> may attach to an adjective or noun, such as Coldy ("cold"), Lundy ("puffin"), or Walney ("quagmire").
The linking logic here is that the hypothetical <Tarney> would mean "island notable for its small lakes". It's also useful to note that both <tarn> and <-ey> derive from Old Norse elements.
As a plausible constructed English place-name, <Tarney> would then be plausible as a surname.

Administrative note: Name and device were returned in the Aug. 2001 meeting of the WKCoH. Name submitted at that time was Oliver Tarnsley which we could not justify. Fees were paid at that time.
Device appears clear.

Richard Talbot     [Betony Wood]      New Name & Device
Argent, a bend sinister engrailed, two towers vert.

Alternates: (1) Richard Talbot of Blackmere (2) Richard Talbot of Badenoch (sp?), (3) Richard Fairfax
Gender: male

<Richard> Reaney & Wilson (p.348 under <Talbot>): Richard Talebot 1086, Richard Thalebot 1225
Richard appears to be the submitter's mundane given name.
<Talbot> Starkey, David, ed. _Rivals in Power: Lives and Letters of the Great Tudor Dynasties_, pg. 230 "George Talbot, 4th Earl of Shrewsbury, d. 1538" Also Reaney & Wilson (p.348 under <Talbot>): Gilbert Talbot 1332

Administrative note: fees provided.
Device appears clear.

Sabina le Sewester     [Champclair]      New Device
Per pale and per saltire gules and argent, on a roundel counterchanged a spider inverted, and a bordure sable.

Administrative note: Fee paid. Matins will make sufficient copies of the form. Name passed WKCoH Sept. 2001 meeting.

Stephen de la Bere     [Oertha]      New Name & Device
Vert, a bear passant and on a base point pointed argent, two roundels in fess azure.

Gender: male

None provided.
<de la Bere> See Reaney & Wilson, pg. 34 under <Bear>: Walter de la Bere 1263
<Stephen> See Reaney & Wilson, pg. 426 under <Stephen>: Robert Stephen 1260
Stephen appears to be the submitter's mundane given name.

Administrative note: fees provided.


Rosa di Marco     Resubmission of Device to Kingdom
Or, five lozenges points to center gules.

There was some discussion as to the style being reminiscent of the logo for the Plymoth automobile.
Conflict was found with Damon Kirby: Argent vetu gules, four lozenges in cross gules. There is no difference counted between four and five lozenges.

Sorcha O'Roarke     New Name & Device
Azure, a dragon passant coward to sinister between three compass stars Or.

Alternates: (1) O'Rourke
Gender: female
Authenticity for: 15th-16th c. time period

<O'Roarke> O'Corrain & Maguire, p. 158. O/Ruaire and O'Rourke derived from Ruarcc, Ruare OC&M doesn't actually mention the submitted spelling of the surname. Woulfe (p.636) lists <O'Roarke> as a modern Anglicized form.

<Sorcha> O'C&M, p.167.

Although the spelling <Sorcha> is the Irish spelling, it seems plausible as an English spelling as well. However, we have one example of the name being changed to <Sara> in an English-language record in 1602 (one <Sara ny Neale> aka Sorcha inghean ui Neill), this from the notes to the "Life of Aodh Ruadh". The current Laurel standard is that mixing Irish and English spellings is only a single weirdness, so the question doesn't actually touch on registerability.

We believe there is a conflict between this name and Sorcha inghean ui Ruairc (Mar.99, East); they are, according to Harpy, the same name.

The submitter will also be asked to redraw the passant dragon on her device such that the feet on the ground are level on the horizontal rather than on its current upward slope.

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