Minutes of the November, 2001 Herald's Meeting

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MINUTES -November. AS XXXVI (2001)

The meeting was held on Sunday, November 4, 2001, at the home of Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn. The meeting started at 12:05 noon. and ended at 1:23 p.m. In attendance at this meeting were: Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn, Harpy; Teleri Tawel, Matins; Felix MacAvady, St. Katherines; Eilis O'Boirne; Frederick of Holland, Brachet; Christian de Holacombe, P.E..


The upcoming meetings are: Dec.2, Jan.6, 2002, Feb.3, Mar. 10, Apr. 14, May 12, and June 9. Until Twelfth Night, these regular meetings are usually held at the home of Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn, Harpy Herald (Heather Rose Jones). Contact her if you need directions. Twelfth Night and thereafter, the regular meetings will be held at the home of Eilis O'Boirne. Meetings start at noon.

In view of the light submissions, the College is considering meeting every two months instead of every month. Discussion on this suggestion is welcome on our e-mail list, wkheralds@transbay.net. The WKHeralds list is open by request to heralds in the West Kingdom. To join the list, please contact Matins.

ANYONE WITH WALK-IN SUBMISSIONS SHOULD CONTACT MATINS IN ADVANCE. This is especially important if the submitter has previous submissions, so I can make sure to bring the file.

Currently we are researching the names beforehand through an e-mail list, names@synergy.transbay.net. The Names list is open by request to heralds in the West Kingdom who are interested in research. To join the list, please contact Matins.

Please send all correspondence (submissions, minutes subscriptions, etc.) to the address at the top of this letter! Please do NOT send submissions or minutes requests to Vesper.


NEW MATINS - Eilis O'Boirne has volunteered to take over the position of Matins Herald as of Twelfth Night 2002.

NEW SUBMISSION FORMS - The Laurel Sovereign of Arms has issued a standard set of submission forms for use by all kingdoms. Laurel has stated that these forms will be required for all submissions to the College of Arms. This requirement began in February, 1999. Therefore, unless there is an unexpected change in this policy, we are forced to return any submissions not using the new forms henceforth. The new forms are now available from Matins or the Kingdom consultation table.

KNOWN WORLD HERALDIC AND SCRIBAL ARTS SYMPOSIUM 2002 - will be hosted by the Kingdom of Trimaris on June 21-23, 2002, at the Ramada Plaza Hotel & Inn Gateway in Kissimmee, Florida. Information is available at http://www.kwhs.org/


Subscriptions that expire in November: none. Subscriptions that expire in December: Hirsch von Henford.

In light of the small number of existing subscriptions, the expense of copying and mailing, and the limitations of the current Matins, we are considering moving the Minutes to the Herald's web site for electronic publication. Hopefully this would allow us to reach a wider audience as well. However, such a move must currently wait until Teleri gets a scanner.


These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. Please consider attending. They are a fast way to learn how the Rules of Submission work and how to research armory. The Brachet meetings are in Berkeley on Wednesday nights. If you are interested, contact the Brachet Herald, Frederick of Holland (Fred Hollander) at (510) 653-3652.


Subscriptions to these minutes are available for $15 for one year from the College of Heralds at the address in the letterhead. Updates to the Armorial and Ordinary are available from Free Trumpet Press West along with other useful heraldic publications. Write for a free price list. The address is Free Trumpet Press West, 1613 N. School St. Normal, IL 61761-1240.

A Pictorial Dictionary of Heraldry as Used in the Society for Creative Anachronism (by Bruce Draconarius of Mistholme and Akagawa Yoshio) is available in the United States by sending $15 to Bruce Miller, 1711 Tenth Street, Manhattan Beach, CA 90266, (310) 379-1321.


Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at http://www.sca.org/heraldry, including West Kingdom submission forms, the Laurel home page, on-line armorial and ordinary search and The Academy of St. Gabriel (a heraldic consultation service) which is now back on line after a temporary hiatus.

CURRENT FEES & Requirements

There has been a request for the Minutes to include current submission requirements. Current submission fees are $10 per name, $10 per device, $10 per badge. There is no fee for resubmission. Submissions requires 3 copies of the name form and documentation, 4 coloured copies of the device form, and 3 colour copies of the badge form, as applicable.


Excerpts from the Letter of Acceptances and Returns, dated 2001, from Francios la Flamme, Laurel King of Arms.

Good Intent

Enclosed is a Laurel Letter of Intent for "Wreath Sovereign of Arms", the title for use by Dame Zenobia Naphtali, who is making the rulings on armory submissions..

From Wreath Queen of Arms: IN A BROWN STUDY

...questions considering proper charges that are brown...

One is a tincture conflict question: when a proper item is brown in color, and when it is drawn correctly as a clear wood brown, should that proper item be given a tincture CD from an heraldic tincture? Or should it be considered to have no differencee from some particular tinctures, such as sable? <period examples given showing both ways>...
The other question is whether our current policy concerning proper brown animals is correct...PRECEDENT:...animals which are normally brown may be registered simply as an [X] proper (e.g., boar proper, hare proper). Animals which are frequently found as brown but also commonly appear in other tinctures in the natural world may be registered as a brown [X] proper (e.g., brown hound proper, brown horse proper.)
...however... a hare proper will be considered to be all brown, not brown with white underbelly and tail and pink ears.
...please have your research, and your discussions about what you believe the proper policies should be, ready for the March 2002 Laurel meeting.


...we have seen an increasing number of submission where a complex charge (such as an animal) is drawn without any internal details... However,.. such "silhouette" depictions are acceptable in the SCA as long as identifiability is preserved.

Acceptances: WEST

Anna Giordano da Firenze. Name and device. Gules, three roses and on a chief argent three crosses formy gules.

Antonio Giordano da Firenze. Name (see PENDS for device).

Antonio Giordano da Sicilia. Badge. (Fieldless) A heart per saltire purpure and gules transfixed by a sword inverted sable.

Bryne McClellan. Device. Argent, a rose gules within an annulet of thorns sable a bordure vert.

The submitter has received permission to conflict from Adelaide de Beaumont, Argent, a pimpernel gules, slipped and leaved, within a bordure vert.

Cáemgen mac Olcain. Name and device. Gules, a sinister gusset ermine and a chief checky sable and argent.

Submitted as Cáemgen Mac Olcain, the submitter intended the particle to mean "son [of]". As such, we have changed its capitalization to mac to follow standard conventions. The submitter requested authenticity for 1300s Scottish. All the elements for this name are documented from Ireland; the College did not find evidence that they were used in Scottish Gaelic. However, given the lack of sources for Scottish Gaelic in the 1300s, we do not know if the submitted combination is authentic.
Please advise the submitter that a correctly drawn gusset (as per the PicDic) issues from the top corner of the shield (just under the chief). A properly drawn gusset also does not extend all the way to the bottom of the field. It should be possible to have a dexter and a sinister gusset on one shield and see some field between them.

Cáemgen mac Olcain. Badge. (Fieldless) An hedgehog rampant ermine.

Edith of Swanesdale. Name and device. Or, a squirrel sejant erect to sinister and a bordure gules.

Submitted as Swanesdæl, this element violates RfS III.1.a since it combines the Middle English Swanes- with the Old English -dæl, combining two incompatible elements in the same placename. We have changed the spelling to Swanesdale (using the Middle English -dale) to make this element internally consistant.

Evaine MacGreger. Device. Ermine, on a chief embattled purpure three frets conjoined Or.

Giovanni Giordano da Firenze. Name and device. Purpure, a lion passant guardant and on a chief argent three crosses formy gules.

Kaaren Håkonsdotter. Name.

Submitted as Kaaren Håkonsdóttir. Kaaren is the submitter's legal name. Gage found the spelling Håkon in SMP (Sveriges medeltida personnamn) dated to 1451. At that time, the patronymic form is more likely to be Håkonsdotter based on examples in SMP. As the submitted form combined Old Norse and 15th C Swedish, it violated RfS III.1.a by mixing languages. To clear this problem, we have changed the patronymic to the 15th C Swedish form Håkonsdotter as that is closer to the submitted byname than the Old Norse form Hákonardóttir.

Muriel NicCord. Device. Azure, an owl on a chief embattled argent three increscents azure.

Rilint Neufang. Name.

Robert le Dragon. Name and device. Or, a dragon segreant to sinister vert within a bordure vert semy of escallops inverted argent.

Valdis Gylšir. Device. Argent, a wolf statant ululuant contourny and on a chief engrailed gules two eyes argent irised gules and pupilled sable.

Returns: WEST


Pended: WEST

Antonio Giordano da Firenze. Device. Vert, a dragon segreant and on a chief argent three crosses formy gules.

The blazon on the LoI said that there were three dragons, not one. It appears that most commenters merely noted the discrepancy and checked for conflict on the blazoned version, rather than researching the emblazoned version. This is pended to ensure that research is done on the correct emblazon.

In Service,

Teleri Tawel
Matins Pursuivant



Genevieve de la Mer Bleue     Change of Device
Or a cross of Toulouse gules.

Administrative note: Either the name or the following device associated [with] it (or both) were registered in August of 1979:
Registered device: Per fess engrailed argent and azure, two bottle-nosed dolphins hauriant and urinant proper within a bordure per fess azure and argent, charged with in chief three mullets and in base three escallops counterchanged.
Fee provided.

Heafoc atte Ree     Resubmission to Kingdom, Device
Azure two hawks close respectant and a double-bladed axe inverted within a bordure dovetailed argent.

Administrative note: Name passed WKCoH Sept. 2001 meeting. Device returned for redrawing at that time. Insufficient fees at that time. Fee provided with this submission.

Jamie MacLaren     [Ekornegill]      New Name

Will NOT accept major changes
Alternates: (1) Jamie McLaren, (2) James Patrickssen
Cares about lang/culture: Scottish and/or Norman
Gender: male

<MacLaren> Black, The Surnames of Scotland, pg. 534: MAC LAREN is the header spelling. Note: Donald Mak laurene/ (1586), Laran McLaran (1592).
<Jamie> Black, pg.382: JAMIE a diminutive of JAMES (1623)

See RETURNS for device.

Administrative note: fees provided

Robin of Siverwood     [Ekornegill]      New Name & Device
Sable a winged cat segreant argent and a bordure embattled Or.

Will NOT accept major changes
Alternate: Robin of Lynxwood
Cares about sound
Meaning: Robin from (x) forest or wood
Lang/cult: (a) English, (b) Scottish, (c) Irish, 11th-13th c.
Gender: female
Holding name ok
Mundane name: Robin Kimmy

<Silverwood> Ekwall, English Place Names, pg.423: examples of Silverdale (1382) and Silverleg (1228) suggest that Silverwood is reasonable.
<Robin> Withycombe, pg 254-255, Robin as a form of Robert (1200, 1205, 1210)

Administrative note: fees provided

Rose MacQuarrie     [Golden Rivers]      New Name

Alternates: (1) Royse MacQuarrie, (2) Rose M'Goyre, (3) Rose M'Guaire
Cares about lang/culture: Gaelic/Scottish
Gender: female
Authentic for Gaelic/Scottish lang/culture

<Rose> Withycombe, pg. 258, under the heading Rose, dated by citation to 1316.
<MacQuarrie> Black, pg. 558, under the heading Mac Quarrie. This is the modern spelling. The heritage of the name dates back to 1463.

Administrative note: fee provided. Actual desired capitalization of the name has been extrapolated by Matins as submissioin form has it written in all caps.


Royal Company of Archers (by Earl Kevin Perigrynne)      New Badge
(Fieldless) a crossbow between and conjoined to an oak wreath surmounted in base by a rose Or.

Must be returned for signatures of royalty. Also for use of a wreath that is too similar visually to the laurel wreath which is restricted to landed entities. Suggest using a chaplet which is a wreath in circle.

Administrative note: fee paid. The online Armorial lists:
Royal Company of Archers
This order name was registered to West, Kingdom of the at some point.

Jamie MacLaren     [Ekornegill]      New Device
Argent, per pale offset to sinister between in bend sinister two trilithons sable.

It was felt by the WKCoH that the pale should be drawn wider but that that would require a considerable reduction in size of the trilithons. Will be sent back for re-drawing. Suggest doing per quarterly.

Administrative note: fees provided.

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