Minutes of the December, 2001 Herald's Meeting

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MINUTES -December. AS XXXVI (2001)

The meeting was held on Sunday, December 2, 2001, at the home of Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn. The meeting started at 12:13 noon. and ended at 2:18 p.m. In attendance at this meeting were: Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn, Harpy; Felix MacAvady, St. Katherines; Eilis O'Boirne, next Matins; Frederick of Holland, Brachet; Maxem Dawel ap Morgan; Owen ap Morgan; Christian de Holacombe, P.E.; Astrið of Swansvale, Latimer; Teleri Tawel, Matins.


The upcoming meetings are: Jan.6, 2002, Feb.3, Mar. 10, Apr. 14, May 12, and June 9. With the change of Matins, there is a change of venue. Meetings will be held at the home of Eilis O'Boirne. Contact her if you need directions. Golem note: See the Contact page of this website for address and contact information for Eilis.

In view of the light submissions, the College is considering meeting every two months instead of every month. Discussion on this suggestion is welcome on our e-mail list, wkheralds@transbay.net. The WKHeralds list is open by request to heralds in the West Kingdom. To join the list, please contact Matins.

ANYONE WITH WALK-IN SUBMISSIONS SHOULD CONTACT MATINS IN ADVANCE. This is especially important if the submitter has previous submissions, so I can make sure the file is brought to the meeting.
Currently we are researching the names beforehand through an e-mail list, names@synergy.transbay.net. The Names list is open by request to heralds in the West Kingdom who are interested in research. To join the list, please contact Matins.

Please send all correspondence (submissions, minutes subscriptions, etc.) to the address at the top of this letter! Please do NOT send submissions or minutes requests to Vesper.


NEW MATINS - Eilis O'Boirne has volunteered to take over the position of Matins Herald as of Twelfth Night 2002.

NEW SUBMISSION FORMS - The Laurel Sovereign of Arms has issued a standard set of submission forms for use by all kingdoms. Laurel has stated that these forms will be required for all submissions to the College of Arms. This requirement began in February, 1999. Therefore, unless there is an unexpected change in this policy, we are forced to return any submissions not using the new forms henceforth. The new forms are now available from Matins or the Kingdom consultation table or by following the appropriate links at: I Want to Register a Name/Device (Arms)/Badge -- What Do I Do? (West Kingdom Herald's website).

KNOWN WORLD HERALDIC AND SCRIBAL ARTS SYMPOSIUM 2002 - will be hosted by the Kingdom of Trimaris on June 21-23, 2002, at the Ramada Plaza Hotel & Inn Gateway in Kissimmee, Florida. Information is available at http://www.kwhs.org/.


Subscriptions that expire in December: Hirsch von Henford. Subscriptions that expire in January: Gwenhwyvar verch Gwillim, Morgana yr Oerfa.

In light of the small number of existing subscriptions, the expense of copying and mailing, and the limitations of the current Matins, we are considering moving the Minutes to the Herald's web site for electronic publication. You are reading an example of how this might be handled.


These meetings comment on heraldic submissions from other Kingdoms. Please consider attending. They are a fast way to learn how the Rules of Submission work and how to research armory. The Brachet meetings are in Berkeley on Wednesday nights. If you are interested, contact the Brachet Herald, Frederick of Holland (Fred Hollander) at (510) 653-3652.


Subscriptions to these minutes are available for $15 for one year from the College of Heralds at the address in the letterhead. Updates to the Armorial and Ordinary are available from Free Trumpet Press West along with other useful heraldic publications. Write for a free price list. The address is Free Trumpet Press West, 1613 N. School St. Normal, IL 61761-1240.

A Pictorial Dictionary of Heraldry as Used in the Society for Creative Anachronism (by Bruce Draconarius of Mistholme and Akagawa Yoshio) is available in the United States by sending $15 to Bruce Miller, 1711 Tenth Street, Manhattan Beach, CA 90266, (310) 379-1321.


Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at http://www.sca.org/heraldry, including West Kingdom submission forms, the Laurel home page, on-line armorial and ordinary search and The Academy of St. Gabriel (a heraldic consultation service) which is now back on line after a temporary hiatus.

CURRENT FEES & Requirements

There has been a request for the Minutes to include current submission requirements. Current submission fees are $10 per name, $10 per device, $10 per badge. There is no fee for resubmission. Submissions requires 3 copies of the name form and documentation, 4 coloured copies of the device form, and 3 colour copies of the badge form, as applicable.


Excerpts from the Letter of Acceptances and Returns, from Francios la Flamme, Laurel King of Arms, for his most recent 2001 meetings:

None as yet.

In Service,

Teleri Tawel
Matins Pursuivant



1. Adriana Tacita     [Hawk's Haven]      New Name & Device
Per pale purpure and Or, two oars counterchanged.

Cares more about meaning of byname "quiet" and sound of given name.
Desired Lang: Latin
Gender: female

Authentic for Latin/Italian 5th-6th c. time period and lang/culture
<Adriana> Mortlet, vol. 2, pg. 14
<Tacita> Latin for "quiet" but see also the Roman "Tacitus" and medieval Italian masc. given name "Tacito". DeFelize, _Nomi_, pg. 339. Solin & Salomies (Solin, Heikki & Olli Salomies. Repertorium nominum gentilium et cognominum Latinorum. Hildescheim: Olms-Weidmann, 1988.) cites the masculine form <Tacitus> as a cognomen. Interestingly, Swanson (Swanson, Donald C. 1967. The Names in Roman Verse. University of Wisconsin Press, Madison.) notes that in the works of Ovid there is a feminine <Tacita> who is an allegorical "goddess of Silence", confirming the idea that th word would be a reasonable nickname with this meaning.

Administrative note: fees included.

2. Agnarr Thorvaldsson     New Name

Submitted as: Agnar Thorvald
Alternates: Gunnar Thorvald
Cares about lang/culture: Viking
Gender: male
Authentic for Viking Age time period

None provided.
Lind has listings for both <Agnarr> and <{TH}orvaldr> as masculine given names, with citations starting in the saga era. For an authentic "Viking-era" name, we need the older form of the nominative for <Agnarr> and to turn the second element into a patronym: <Agnarr {TH}orvaldsson>.

Administrative note: fee included.

3. Alail Horsefriend     New Badge
(Fieldless) A horse contourny argent.

Administrative note: fee paid Nov. 2000 as device change. Name registered in April of 1982 (via the West), per the online Armorial; Matins' paper file is not certain as to that date.

4. Celestina Ambrosini     [Silver Desert]      New Name & Device
Purpure, a decresent and on a chief wavy argent three mullets of six points purpure.

Alternates: (1) Maddalena, (2) Aquilana, (3) Fiora
Cares about lang/culture: Florence, Italy 1469-92
Gender: female
Authentic for time period and lang/culture

<Celestina> de Felize, _Nomi_, pg. 103, sub: Celeste
<Ambrosini> de Felize, _Cognomi_, pg. 54, sub: Ambrogi

I couldn't find any better citations for the name elements than De Felice. While those will presumably be enough to get it registered, this lack casts severe doubt on how good a 15th century Florentine name this is, since the material I researched included the very extensive lists from the Florentine Catasto of 1427. (None of the four given names above appear among the 600 women's names in this source, the closest being <Flore>. The closest to the surname is the variant <Ambrogio>, occuring as a masculine given name and in a patronym, although the source doesn't indicate whether the patronym included any prepositional linkers.)

Administrative note: fees included.

5. Constance de Lancray      New Name & Device
Argent, issuant from a ford proper a demisun gules.

Alternates: Constance Lancray
Cares about lang/culture: French
Gender: female
Authentic for French 14th-15th c. time period and lang/culture

<Constance> Dauzat, pg. 144
<Lancray> Dauzat, pg. 363. Having translated Dauzat's listings, his major theory for the origin of <Lancray> is from a river name <Ancre> also <l'Ancre>, which is cited as <Encra> in 870 and <Ancre> in 1620 in his alphabetic dictionary of French place names (confusingly enough, under <Albert>). Since the listed surname form <Lancray> includes the definite article, it seems plausible that this form would also occur in combination with >de< as the client desires.

Submitter needs to draw the ford larger with a couple more bars wavy. The wavy bars should wave more deeply. Sun needs to move up and be drawn either with straight rays or alternating straight and wavy rays.

We note Oxford, City of: (important non-SCA arms): Argent an ox statent gules atop a ford proper. We will request Laurel to tell us if either or both of the ox in the Oxford arms and the demisun in the submitted arms are to be considered the primary charge. If either or both are primary, there's no conflict.

Administrative note: fees included.

7. Geneviève de Vendome     [Mists]      Change of Name

Registered name: Geneviève de la Mer Bleue
Cares about lang/culture: French, 16th C.
Gender: female
Authentic for 16th c. France time period and lang/culture.

<Geneviève> Dewald, Jonathan, The Formation of a Provincial Nobility; The magistrate of the Parlement of Rouen, 1499-1610, Princeton Univ. Press, 1980. http://www.s_gabriel.org/names/cateline/norman16.html. Also listed in the 1292 Census of Paris http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html
<de Vendome> is a placename, in the Loire Valley, SW of Paris, between LeMans and Orleans. The submitter attached a copy of a map from a web site. The current spelling of Vendome is usually with a circumflex above the <o>. However, the submitted spelling appears in the 12th and 13th c. chanson de geste according to Langlois, Ernest, Table des Noms Propres de toute nature compris dan les Chansons de Gest, NY: Burt Franklin, 1971 [1904].

Administrative notes: fee included. The online armorial says: Geneviève de la Mer Bleue, Either the name or the following device associated with it (or both) were registered in August of 1979. Matins paper file is not specific as to that date. She submitted a change of device in our Nov. 2001 WKCoH meeting.

8. Hauoc Bender      Change of Name

Currently registered name: Hauoc of House Bender
Will not accept major change.
Gender: male

9. Penne Dering     [Golden Rivers]      New Name

<Penne> Talan's on-line listing from Reaney & Wilson. sub. Petronilla. Penne is documented to 1277, 1327.
<Dering> Arval's on-line listing "English Names from Pre-1600 Brass Inscriptions", sub. Surnames, dated to 1425.

Administrative note: fee included with Valentine Hawkes. (This note is for myself so I don't spend time looking for non-existent checks.)

8. Sorcha Fhionn inghean ui Ruaric      Resubmission to Kingdom
Azure, a dragon passant to sinister between three compass stars Or.

Submitted as: Sorcha Brigit O'Roarke
Alternates: Sorcha Fhionn inghean ui/Ruairc, (2) Sorcha O'Roarke of Tamsey
Gender: female

Her name and device were rejected at our Oct. meeting because of a conflict between this name and Sorcha inghean ui Ruairc (Mar. 99, East).

<O'Roarke> O'Corrain & Maguire, p. 158. O/Ruaire and O'Rourke derived from Ruarcc, Ruare OC&M doesn't actually mention the submitted spelling of the surname. Woulfe (p. 636) lists <O'Roarke> as a modern anglicized form.
<Sorcha> O'C&M, p. 167.
<Brigit> Withycombe, pg. 54, under Bridget.
The commentary in Oct. was thus:

Although the spelling <Sorcha> is the Irish spelling, it seems plausible as an English spelling as well. However, we have one example of the name being changed to <Sara> in an English-language record in 1602 (one <Sara ny Neale> aka Sorcha inghean ui Neill), this form notes to the "Life of Aodh Ruadh". The current Laurel standard is the mixing Irish and English spellings is only a single weirdness, so the question doesn't actually touch on registerability.
The current submission added a second weirdness in teh second given Gaelic name. Precedent has names returned for double given Gaelic names, there being no documentation of any such in period.

This has several problems from a registration (not to mention historical ;-)) perspective:
1. Double given names in Gaelic are a bounce (because Gaelic names did not use double given names in period)
2. Double given names in Scots is a weirdness (because non-royal Scots names did not use double given names in period, and only 1 possibly two end of period royal scots did.) See LoAR: Duncan Alastaire MacRae, 12/99, A-Outlands http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1999/12/lar.html:
"Submitted as Duncan Alasdair MacRae, the name had two weirdnesses: mixing the Gaelic and English spellings, and using a double given name in Scots. Therefore, we have Anglicized the entire name."
(Note that historically double given names in English are historically very limited anyway -- only certain limited sets of middle names were used, such as <Maria> and <Posthumus/a> and they were very unusual.)
3. Mixing Gaelic and English orthography in a single name is a weirdness. See LoAR Cover Letter 8/1999: http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1999/08/cvr.html and see LoAR Ian MacHenrik, 10/99, A-An Tir: http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1999/10/lar.html

In fact, in LoAR: Cassandra Annabelle O Shannahan, 04/00, A-Atenveld] http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2000/04/00-04lar.html: "Submitted as <Cassandra Annabell O Seanacain>, the name has two weirdnesses: the mixture of Gaelic and English spelling conventions and the use of two given names, particularly in an Irish context, where it is not allowed. It also used a masculine form of the patronymic with a feminine name. By Anglicizing the surname, we make this an English name for someone of Irish decent, making it registerable."

In other words, it appears that this name, to be registerable, needs to be able to be justified as an English name, not an Irish name. <Sorcha> and <Brigit> are both Gaelic spellings. Further, unlike <Cassandra> and <Annabell>, which start out as more English than Irish in the first place, <Sorcha> is at least a Gaelic origin name and not one that is known to have been adopted into English in period. It does not seem possible to turn <Sorcha Brigit O'Roarke> into an English name, even by CoA standards.

Translating the whole name ingo Gaelic either by adding a descriptive byname or her father's given name, produced:
<Sorcha Fhionn inghean ui/Ruairc> 'Fair Sorcha daughter of O'Roarke'
<Sorcha inghean Domhnaill ui/Ruairc> 'Sorcha daughter of Donald O'Roarke'
Email contact with submitter authorized: <Sorcha Fhionn inghean ui/Ruairc>

The device was drawn as Azure an eagle-winged dragon passant to sinister between three compass stars Or. We called the submitter and found that she really wanted a bat-winged dragon as in a sketch sent her by Matins. Matins will redraw this in accordance with those instructions.

Administrative note: fees paid in Oct.

9. Valentine Hawkes     [Golden Rivers]      New Name

<Valentine> Arval's on-line listing "English Names from Pre-1600 Brass Inscriptions", sub. Masculine Names, dated to 1442.
<Hawkes> Kathleen M. O'Brien's on-line listing "Names of Members of the Frobisher Voyages, 1576-1578", sub. Hawke, this spelling dated to 1578.

Administrative note: fee included with Penne Dering.


6. Fennore Lindsey      New Name and Device
Per bend wavy purpure and Or, two dolphins naiant in annullo counterchanged argent and azure.

Will NOT accept major changes
Alternates: (1) Daeere (sp?) Kinsey
(2) Una Sheehy
(3) Kenzie Dunbar
Cares about meaning: "Linsey is a family name"
Gender: female

<Fennore> O'Corrain & Maguire, Gaelic Personal Names, pg. 100-101. Anglicized form of Finnabhair.
<Lindsey> Reaney & Wilson, English Surnames, pg. 280. Thomas Le Lindesie, 1207.

O'C&M provide only legendary examples of the name (and say that it _could_ be Anglicized <Fennore> without actually saying that it ever has been). I can find no other support for it (in any form) as a historic feminine given name. Given the lack of a pattern in the client's four name suggestions, I suspect that she would benefit greatly from consultation, rather than registering whichever of the alternatives seems likeliest. I have no idea what <Daeere> might be intended to be. <Kenzie> is derived originally from a masculine given name via the patronymic surname MacKenzie. #2 has the best chance of being turned into not only a registerable name but a reasonably good historic name, but I really think we should talk to the client first, because I don't think we have enough information about what she really wants to be able to make that kind of choice for her.

Because there is no pattern in the name alternates and because <Fennore> seems to be a mythological name, the name will be returned for consultation.

The submitter will be advised not to use silver for argent and that the line of division needs to be more wavy. We commend her exquisite drawing of a heraldic dolphin. She does not need four colours for difference.

Administrative note: fees included.

10. William the Merchant     [Ravenshore]      New Name and Device
Argent, a bat-winged squirrel sejant erect wings elevated and addorsed sable maintaining a bezant.

Alternates: William the Silent
Cares about meaning, a travelling merchant
Gender: male

<William> "common to the SCA time period"
<the/a Merchant> a job description

R&W (p. 298 under "Marchant") note a <Herueus Merchant> in 1219 and <Ranulph le Marchand> in 1240 (among others), which are as close as I can get to the submitted form. On the given name, note R&W (p. 493 under "William") <Henry Fitz William> 1300 (given the format of documents of the period, the surname forms are sometimes better reflections of vernacular forms than the given name spellings, which are often Latinized).

Conflict with William Marchant (Dec 97, Meridies). Alternate conflics with William the Silent ('73?, West).

Administrative note: fees provided

Other merchant-oriented by-names:
Fransson, Middle English Surnames of Occupation 1100-1350. Mangere (1275), Monger (1316) pg. 52, Chapman (1202) pg 515, Huckestere (1281), Huckere (1307) pg 53-4, Pakemen (1317) pg. 54, Vendur (1277) pg. 53, Brokur (1260) pg. 54, Thuresson, pg 192, Shopman (1434) pg 193 le Shopper (1332).

We could not come up with a position for winged squirrel that was identifiable. Needs to seek consultation. (Shop sign and device need not be related.)

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